Game Thoughts: No Rocky Mountain High for this team Edition

Sicilian said:

I think we need an upgrade over Cannon/Flemming as a depth tackle. Solder and Vollmer are fine to me, but as soon as one goes down there's a huge hole. We also need a veteran guard. I'm willing to bet Stork bounces back at C and Andrews is decent depth, but I don't want to put all of my o-line hopes on Kline, or that both Jackson and Mason will develop. I want to go into the season knowing that only one of them needs to stand out in order for the line to solidify.

If we can do that, and the line gets a chance to gel over the course of a season (which was never really able to happen this year), I think we'll be surprised how much better the running backs we already have would look. Not that I'm opposed to an upgrade over Blount/Jackson, but it's hard to objectively evaluate them under this past year's conditions.

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Think we definitely need a solid, average veteran guard as a fallback for next year in case Jackson and Mason can't make a jump or in case of more injuries. The loss of Wendell and Connolly really hurt us down the line.

BelichickFan said:

I was good with going on 4th & 1. On the second, I would have kicked the FG as it was 4th & 6. While time was running out, a TD would have won it and we had three TO.

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If we kick the FG at the second 4th down most probably we will only get the ball back with around 1:20 seconds and no time outs. Also at least 10-20 yards farther into our own half if you assume that Denver would then punt not from their own 14 but most probably closer to the 25 yard line.

And that is if all the calls stay the same. Who knows if Denver doesn't try something slightly more risky to run the clock out since now they are actually on the hook and can lose the game instead of just risking OT.

Difficult..

Rob0729 said:

His knee clearly hit the ground before he landed on the defender. It was clear either an incomplete pass or a first down (down by contact) and nowhere in between.

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OK, I'll take your word for it. The game has been erased from the DVR and will not be revisited by me.

luuked said:

Not trying to mock you because you are among the first to at least go into depth in criticism but if it was just about chipping people don't you think BB would have seen that and made sure they adjust for that ? He has seen so much through all his time in the league and I would be shocked if he wouldnt have just told Josh to adjust for it.

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Then why didn't they do something? The status quo certainly wasn't working. By your argument there's no use to ever have a discussion and be critical because Bill and Josh always have the answers. I gave my reason why. Josh always thinks they'll eventually succeed with this method except he's been wrong in the biggest of games several times now.

luuked said:

Think we will here some leaks in the coming weeks about how injured LaFell and Chandler really were. Wouldn't be surprised to see them both back. If the Chandler knee injury is just a red herring that was posted by some of the beat writers and it really was him falling out of favor then it will definitely be goodbye.

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They were both awful all season. I was beating the Chandler drum and was psyched when they picked him up. I was wrong and it's time to cut bait.

luuked said:

One of the major mysteries for is why we never saw those awesome redzone, 3 TE formations from the first two games again during the regular season. I understand that we traded Hooman but I am sure Williams could have run his endzone route anyway.

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I agree. Honestly I thought chipping Miller with Williams and then hitting him with a short pass a few times would have softened Denver up.

luuked said:

Think they tried to isolate him a few times on the linebacker but it only worked on those deep routes where he barely missed the catch like 3 times ? Think that Denver just handled him well. And I wouldn't be surprised after McD repeatedly scorching a Wade defense with exactly those speedy RB on a LB plays. I think the entire rout of the Texans in 2012 at Foxboro was based on them.

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But it was all late in the game and all on deep wheel routes. I would have liked some short stuff to establish tempo and then go no huddle which they never did.

luuked said:

I wrote something similar in the draft sub forum. If you trade Chandler Jones in some package with another lower draft pick you might be able to get a somewhat reasonably high second round pick to account for the stolen first round pick. You also save around 7,8m in cap space. Think it is unlikely especially because Ninkovich is getting there in terms of age which means we'd have to replace two players within two years but it would not shock me if it happened.

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He's going to want 11M-ish and isn't worth it and he get at least a first rounder.

luuked said:

If we kick the FG at the second 4th down most probably we will only get the ball back with around 1:20 seconds and no time outs. Also at least 10-20 yards farther into our own half if you assume that Denver would then punt not from their own 14 but most probably closer to the 25 yard line.

And that is if all the calls stay the same. Who knows if Denver doesn't try something slightly more risky to run the clock out since now they are actually on the hook and can lose the game instead of just risking OT.

Difficult..

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There's no way to know, all I know is what I felt at the time. On the 4th and 1 I thought going was good. On the 4th and 6 I thought I would kick the FG.

everlong said:

Then why didn't they do something? The status quo certainly wasn't working. By your argument there's no use to ever have a discussion and be critical because Bill and Josh always have the answers. I gave my reason why. Josh always thinks they'll eventually succeed with this method except he's been wrong in the biggest of games several times now.

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I am not saying we shouldn't have a discussion but if it would have been as easy as just chipping the pass rushers on the way out we would have done it. We did it against the Cowboys and whoever else this year. I can see Josh being a smartass about it and understand your point, but I can't see BB missing a small detail like that. That's all I am saying..

everlong said:

They were both awful all season. I was beating the Chandler drum and was psyched when they picked him up. I was wrong and it's time to cut bait.

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They were awful this season but if it was mostly due to injuries then I could still see them being back next year. If it was because Brady stopped trusting them or whatever you wanna call it then they will be cut. We will see..

everlong said:

But it was all late in the game and all on deep wheel routes. I would have liked some short stuff to establish tempo and then go no huddle which they never did.

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Thought they tried it a few times throughout the first half but just didn't get the look. But then again I was mostly watching our receiver routes and the battle in the trenches after a few punts. So I might have just been seeing things. If it were a regular season game I'd watch the All22 to check up on it but don't wanna sit through that ****pile of a game a second time.

In the end, Josh failed all season to consistently use White for whatever reason and that is definitely on him.

everlong said:

He's going to want 11M-ish and isn't worth it and he get at least a first rounder.

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Am not sure if he will be worth a first round pick unless you mean for 2017. But this year realistically we don't want a first round pick anyway because it would be forfeited. Give me a very early round 2 pick and I am very happy.

Or just make one of the teams that has a former NE guy in the front office draft a player for us in the first round and trade Jones directly afterwards for that player. Which would be the ultimate **** you to the league.

luuked said:

Am not sure if he will be worth a first round pick unless you mean for 2017. But this year realistically we don't want a first round pick anyway because it would be forfeited. Give me a very early round 2 pick and I am very happy.

Or just make one of the teams that has a former NE guy in the front office draft a player for us in the first round and trade Jones directly afterwards for that player. Which would be the ultimate **** you to the league.

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It would not be forfeited. In 2008 the Pats drafted Mayo at #10 and lost #31. There's nothing in the language of the pick loss to suggest it will be the higher pick. Plus what is the league going to do stop the draft and say the Patriots have traded up but we took that pick? It's locked into their pick at #30.

luuked said:

I am not saying we shouldn't have a discussion but if it would have been as easy as just chipping the pass rushers on the way out we would have done it. We did it against the Cowboys and whoever else this year. I can see Josh being a smartass about it and understand your point, but I can't see BB missing a small detail like that. That's all I am saying..

They were awful this season but if it was mostly due to injuries then I could still see them being back next year. If it was because Brady stopped trusting them or whatever you wanna call it then they will be cut. We will see../QUOTE]

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We'll have to agree to disagree on these two points.

What a huge difference having Hightower and Collins was in this game versus the last Den game. Obviously, this is just one observation in a long list of "if only" topics, but them going down for that game is, in hindsight, one of the biggest deciding factors for HFA - which I strongly believe would've changed the outcome (obvious problems for Manning in cold weather).

everlong said:

It would not be forfeited. In 2008 the Pats drafted Mayo at #10 and lost #31. There's nothing in the language of the pick loss to suggest it will be the higher pick. Plus what is the league going to do stop the draft and say the Patriots have traded up but we took that pick? It's locked into their pick at #30.

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This is incorrect. The Patriots lose the highest of their picks in the 1st round this year.

From Troy Vincent's letter:

For the violation of the playing rules and the failure to cooperate in the subsequent investigation, the New England Patriots are fined $1 million and will forfeit the club's first-round selection in the 2016 NFL Draft and the club's fourth-round selection in the 2017 NFL Draft. If the Patriots have more than one selection in either of these rounds, the earlier selection shall be forfeited. The club may not trade or otherwise encumber these selections.

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ForThoseAboutToRock said:

If the Patriots have more than one selection in either of these rounds, the earlier selection shall be forfeited. The club may not trade or otherwise encumber these selections.

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Thanks I hadn't seen that before. That makes it even bigger BS. Not being able to trade in a round is ridiculous.

everlong said:

Thanks I hadn't seen that before. That makes it even bigger BS. Not being able to trade in a round is ridiculous.

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You bring up an interesting thought though - what if a trade up were to occur? I doubt it'll happen, especially since the NFL has promised to take the higher, but would the NFL just not let them pick? Would the other team get to keep the picks that the Patriots gave them?

This language so strongly hints (among all the other evidence out there) that this whole punishment was a make up. Basically this language is "F you - we're making up for Spygate - we're pissed you had that Mayo 1st rounder you gave up capital for - don't try that sht again"

ForThoseAboutToRock said:

You bring up an interesting thought though - what if a trade up were to occur? I doubt it'll happen, especially since the NFL has promised to take the higher, but would the NFL just not let them pick? Would the other team get to keep the picks that the Patriots gave them?

This language so strongly hints (among all the other evidence out there) that this whole punishment was a make up. Basically this language is "F you - we're making up for Spygate - we're pissed you had that Mayo 1st rounder you gave up capital for - don't try that sht again"

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The SF trade was from the previous draft and the league would have had to spell out the higher draft pick. I believe it was their first if they made the playoffs and a 2nd and 3rd if they didn't.

I would imagine since the language is in there the trade would not be allowed to go through.

everlong said:

It would not be forfeited. In 2008 the Pats drafted Mayo at #10 and lost #31. There's nothing in the language of the pick loss to suggest it will be the higher pick. Plus what is the league going to do stop the draft and say the Patriots have traded up but we took that pick? It's locked into their pick at #30.

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I'm pretty sure the punishment specifically said NE would lose it's highest pick in the 1st round. The NFL specifically wanted to prevent that 2008 scenario from happening again.

aluminum seats said:

I thought Amendola was on top of the Broncos' player, to be honest. Seemed like a close call.

Lewis made such a difference...genuinely skilled skill players make such a difference. Guys who you simply get the ball to, and let them create something. Not easy to find. Here's to Lewis being the same guy next year.

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Replay showed that Amendola's knee was down with control of the ball. I mentioned this in the Post Game thread.

DaBruinz said:

For those of you saying that Amendola didn't make the catch where Kubiak challenged, here you go..
At the 2 second mark, he gets control, then his right knee hits the ground while in the grasp of the defender, Webster. The ball doesn't come out until after Webster whips Amendola over. By rule, that's a catch.. What happens AFTER the knee is down doesn't matter.

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ForThoseAboutToRock said:

You bring up an interesting thought though - what if a trade up were to occur? I doubt it'll happen, especially since the NFL has promised to take the higher, but would the NFL just not let them pick? Would the other team get to keep the picks that the Patriots gave them?

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I'm more interested in the scenario I brought up before.. what if Falcons GM Dimitrov would be interested in Chandler Jones and would take a player of our choice with their first round pick (#17) and immediately trade him to us for Jones and another lower draft pick ?

I don't see anything the NFL could do about that. God the reactions everywhere would be glorious.

DaBruinz said:

Replay showed that Amendola's knee was down with control of the ball. I mentioned this in the Post Game thread.

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You will most probably disagree but I think that what Hochuli saw was that the ball was lodged between Dola's hands and on top the defenders arm (stop at 0:02) and moves on the way out. If the defenders hand wouldn't have touched the ball it would have been a catch and down by contact. The way it is you could potentially make an argument that Amendola never showed to have full control and possession.

All of this just shows how ****ed up the catch rule is.

luuked said:

I'm more interested in the scenario I brought up before.. what if Falcons GM Dimitrov would be interested in Chandler Jones and would take a player of our choice with their first round pick (#17) and immediately trade him to us for Jones and another lower draft pick ?

I don't see anything the NFL could do about that. God the reactions everywhere would be glorious.

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That seems incredibly risky. The NFL would feed its media wing with the juicy details of how arrogant Trader Bill and crafty Kraft subverted the NFL's punishment through back channels and therefore deserve even more harsh punishment since they simply cannot learn their lessons and respect the shield.

So, in the hypothetical that Jones get traded, it would probably be for a 2017 1st rounder, much like Seymour.