Coaching has been horrible down the stretch and stupid today

luuked said:

What everyone here for whatever reasons seems to fully ignore is that our offense was equally incapable of moving the ball downfield. We were 2/15 (!!) on third downs. Until the first fourth down attempt we went PUNT-PUNT-PUNT-TD*-INT-FG-INT-PUNT-FG-PUNT-PUNT and didn't touch the redzone EXCEPT for the TD drive after the reversed lateral.

I am sure if someone would send Belichick a message from the future to his headset telling him that on the last drive we will convert a 4th & 10 at midfield with a deep pass into double coverage and a few plays later a 4th & 4 in the redzone then he'd happily take the FG. But since we didn't visit the redzone with a full drive of our own until the very first fourth down attempt I am not shocked that BB thought it might be better to try to get one yard here than producing another 80 yard drive with the time left.

Now that boneheaded playcall on 4th & 1 is a different story and is inexcusable. But those two things are not exclusively connected.

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They still had another 1-2 possessions left at that point, given the way our defense was stifling Denver's offense. What you say is true. That's why you drive home the point that you need to take the points there then put it in the GOAT's hands to win you the game... which we would have if only they had taken the field goal. It was a **** decision and is one of multiple reasons why the Patriots lost the game.

KontradictioN said:

They still had another 1-2 possessions left at that point, given the way our defense was stifling Denver's offense. What you say is true. That's why you drive home the point that you need to take the points there then put it in the GOAT's hands to win you the game... which we would have if only they had taken the field goal. It was a **** decision and is one of multiple reasons why the Patriots lost the game.

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If they kicked two FG's on those two fourth down situations they wouldn't have even needed a TD to take the lead. A third FG on the final drive would put them ahead.

Sometimes belichick needs to have faith in his own guys. He just overthinks the situation.

KontradictioN said:

They still had another 1-2 possessions left at that point, given the way our defense was stifling Denver's offense. What you say is true. That's why you drive home the point that you need to take the points there then put it in the GOAT's hands to win you the game... which we would have if only they had taken the field goal. It was a **** decision and is one of multiple reasons why the Patriots lost the game.

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Kontra, first of all I give you credit for actually replying with a sensible answer so kudos for that.

What you say about putting it into Brady's hands is exactly what Belichick did in the end. He trusted him to gain one yard somehow over another 80+ yard march over the field. I see your point and I would have also preferred a FG to keep the pressure on the Broncos but I also understand the thinking of the coaching staff.

By keeping it a 8 point game you also kinda freeze the Broncos in this weird state where they will not play too aggressively on offense and just try to chew time because the worst case for them is OT. Not even mentioning that it was their worst starting position of the day.

Agree with it or not but the decision to go for it is a lot more nuanced than some people want to give credit for.

People forget the drop by Amendola in the red zone was crushing.

robertweathers said:

If TB had a line that could run and pass block worth a damn it would have been different

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Should have moved Brady around or go max protection sending only 2 receivers out there to give Brady a chance. Weis used to do both when we went up against a crazy pass rush and we only had Troy Brown and David Patten running routes. We have Gronk and Edelman which is infinitely better.

The Brandon Five said:

If they kicked two FG's on those two fourth down situations they wouldn't have even needed a TD to take the lead. A third FG on the final drive would put them ahead.

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I found the king of hindsight !

More of this "everything would have stayed the same" crap. There is no way in hell that the Broncos will call exactly the same conservative playcalls if the score was within a FG. This might have been good for us and resulted in a turnover or bad for us and the Broncos might have converted a few third downs and given us only one possession instead of two at the end. And don't give me any of the Broncos couldn't move nonsense because they were 6/17 on third down when we were only 2/15.

Also by your logic if Butler hadn't given so much space to Sanders on the first 3rd down conversion in the game and stopped him, we would have won the game 18-17 because of course all that followed would have played out exactly the same..

luuked said:

Kontra, first of all I give you credit for actually replying with a sensible answer so kudos for that.

What you say about putting it into Brady's hands is exactly what Belichick did in the end. He trusted him to gain one yard somehow over another 80+ yard march over the field. I see your point and I would have also preferred a FG to keep the pressure on the Broncos but I also understand the thinking of the coaching staff.

By keeping it a 8 point game you also kinda freeze the Broncos in this weird state where they will not play too aggressively on offense and just try to chew time because the worst case for them is OT. Not even mentioning that it was their worst starting position of the day.

Agree with it or not but the decision to go for it is a lot more nuanced than some people want to give credit for.

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It didn't matter what the Broncos did. The Pats had their number on defense. You take the points, put it on your D to get the ball back in time, and at the very least, you have one more possession. They should have taken the FG on both occasions, actually. Denver's defense was gassed on that last drive. There is zero reason to think they couldn't have gotten into field goal range again. That said, they would just get abused by Carolina in the Super Bowl anyway. So I guess we can take solace in that.

condon84 said:

Should have moved Brady around or go max protection sending only 2 receivers out there to give Brady a chance. Weis used to do both when we went up against a crazy pass rush and we only had Troy Brown and David Patten running routes. We have Gronk and Edelman which is infinitely better.

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The Broncos were rushing only three regularly and dropping eight into coverage. This plan would not have worked because they were still getting pressure in two seconds or less with just a three man rush.

condon84 said:

Should have moved Brady around or go max protection sending only 2 receivers out there to give Brady a chance. Weis used to do both when we went up against a crazy pass rush and we only had Troy Brown and David Patten running routes. We have Gronk and Edelman which is infinitely better.

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Against this Denver secondary ? Without the threat of a run ? Now you are just grasping at straws...

KontradictioN said:

It didn't matter what the Broncos did. The Pats had their number on defense. You take the points, put it on your D to get the ball back in time, and at the very least, you have one more possession. They should have taken the FG on both occasions, actually.

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And the Broncos had our number on defense.. but whatever.. like BB just said in the press conference.. lets turn the page..

luuked said:

Against this Denver secondary ? Without the threat of a run ? Now you are just grasping at straws...

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The gameplan was not working. At least if they go max protection Brady isn't under duress and might have avoided maybe one of those INTs.

condon84 said:

Should have moved Brady around or go max protection sending only 2 receivers out there to give Brady a chance. Weis used to do both when we went up against a crazy pass rush and we only had Troy Brown and David Patten running routes. We have Gronk and Edelman which is infinitely better.

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Yea but if the team needed max protect for a 3 and 4 man rush then the game is over at that point.

They tried to run it a few times with White and Bolden just to keep them honest but they are obviously below average runners.

This is where a guy like Lewis would have theoretically made a huge difference.

KontradictioN said:

The Broncos were rushing only three regularly and dropping eight into coverage. This plan would not have worked because they were still getting pressure in two seconds or less with just a three man rush.

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They rushed 3 on obvious passing downs. And also called timely blitzes as well as confused Brady with how they used Miller.

Philips called a great game.

robertweathers said:

People are bashing BB, Josh, etc. Everyone deserves a slice of the blame pie but the olines talent level and performance is THE reason they lost.

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IMO the loss falls on the o-line, praticurly Cannon. His reaction time and overall speed could be clocked with a sun dial, miller had his way with him all game long. it became so bad i stopped watching, not because they were behind, but because brady was being pummeled. BB Josh etc can only work with what they have available, their decisions over the last month and a half have been affected by the amount and seriousness of the injuries on this team. This time it caught up to them, but they had palenty of chances over the last 5-6 weeks for yesterdays game to be played in here. BB had to balance between going all out to win and risk injuring players further, or not playing them (ex hightower, edelman, amendola etc.) he came down to playing them in those december games until they couldn't go, until they limped off the field. To make it as far as they did is quite an accomplishment. with the injuries still lingering i doubt they could beat carolina. Let HGH and the donkeys be the sacrificial lamb in two weeks. Kubiack and his staff aren't good enough to come up with a plan that would stop carolina, imo its going to be like the denver seattle SB all over again.

robertweathers said:

Yea but if the team needed max protect for a 3 and 4 man rush then the game is over at that point.

They tried to run it a few times with White and Bolden just to keep them honest but they are obviously below average runners.

This is where a guy like Lewis would have theoretically made a huge difference.

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So apparently Brady got hit 23 times. Yeah at some point, you gotta realize your gameplan ain't working and it's time to give the guy max protection or at least move him around so he's not such an easy target.

Hard to second-guess this call or that - like BB not calling a timeout in the SB last year, or Carroll's decision to throw...second-guessing (hindsight) is way too easy.

my problem with the McDaniel's offense really came to its head this year. The team never cared about the run game. Ever. Throwing 50 times and catching a defense by surprise is one thing. Throw 50 times every game is something else.

The Pats OL clearly had little run blocking schemes or work adn so Denver said the hell with it and just ran balls out at Brady all day long. And how were they not even chipping Miller or Ware to help out?

Didn't want to play in Denver...

condon84 said:

So apparently Brady got hit 23 times. Yeah at some point, you gotta realize your gameplan ain't working and it's time to give the guy max protection or at least move him around so he's not such an easy target.

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A very good point.

I might be alone here, but I am disppointed with OL coaching by Dave DeGuglielmo. They couldn't run the ball at all and yesterday 5/6 Olinemen couldn't block 3 pass rushers. They didn't get any better as the season progress. Is it time to look for a new OLine coach ?

KontradictioN said:

It didn't matter what the Broncos did. The Pats had their number on defense. You take the points, put it on your D to get the ball back in time, and at the very least, you have one more possession. They should have taken the FG on both occasions, actually. Denver's defense was gassed on that last drive. There is zero reason to think they couldn't have gotten into field goal range again. That said, they would just get abused by Carolina in the Super Bowl anyway. So I guess we can take solace in that.

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I agree, I hated the 4th and 1 call with 6 minutes left. People say 'have faith in Brady to get that yard'...how about 'have faith in Brady to put another drive together'? Take the points, the defense (aside from the long Anderson run) had completely shut the Denver offense down in the second half, get the ball back and hope for a TD drive.

Hindsight's 20/20 and all that, but I thought it was a poor call from the outset. Give Brady 1 or 2 more shots at a TD to win the game. How many times has he gotten the ball with 2-5 minutes left, down a score, and marched the team down for a TD, even when he's getting rocked ala the Giants SB's he's somehow pulled off a go-ahead drive.

I also feel like Miller could have been neutralized better. When it was CLEAR he was getting free runs at Brady because Cannon just couldn't cover his speed they should have switched up more; move guys around on the line, keep a RB in for blocking but sometimes release him and throw a screen over Miller. It seemed they had too much faith in Brady finding that open receiver in 2 seconds and didn't adjust to what was happening on the field.