Coaching has been horrible down the stretch and stupid today

condon84 · Jan 25, 2016

Gronkowski123 said:
belichick had a horrible year. you take the points gronk wins it at the end. would of been incredible...sucks that it didnt happen.

**** josh, only a dumb team would hire him to become their HC. without brady, he's useless

Josh was taken to the woodshed by Phillips today.

TBR · Jan 25, 2016

In regards to going for it twice on 4th down and whether they should've kicked a FG...

I was ok with them going for it the 1st time they were down there. They had trouble moving the ball all game and it was reasonable to expect they might not get this close again. It sucks the playcall was horrific. That was 1 of at least 3 drives where an awful play-call ruined it (some White runs up the gut for 1.5 yards were drive killers numerous times).

However, when they got in Denver territory that 2nd time and faced 4th down... That's when they should've kicked a FG.

I actually remember this happening a couple times this year to a few different teams. When the Bears played Denver this year, they screwed themselves with a similar decision.

Also, on the 2 point conversion I was honestly expecting they'd have a genius play up their sleeve. It sucks the OL gave up immediate pressure there too. If Brady would've had competent protection for just that 1 play, he'd find Gronk to tie it.

luuked · Jan 25, 2016

TheBostonStraggler said:
I don't get this desperation go for it mentality. Converting fourth down did not guarantee a TD. We still had 10+ yards to go in the hardest part of the field, the red zone. And if we convert the fourth down, due to the time we may now use trying to get the TD, any failure to get the TD there would guarantee we could not win this game in the fourth quarter -- only a tie (which would require the 2 point conversion). I didn't see the need to be that desperate -- at least not yet. Given the score and game scenario that 3 points and saving game clock were both valuable.

I was pissed when we went for it on fourth down. We were stonewalling Denver's O and we ourselves were now in a more caution-less 2 minute mode moving it somewhat better between the 30s. So if we had kicked the FG the scenario is: we are down by 5, there is 6 mins on the clock, and Denver has the ball on its own 20. We should have felt pretty good the D could get a 3 and out. Plus we had all 3 timeouts remaining as well as the 2 minute warning to facilitate a change of possession without using much clock.

So if we kick the FG, then hold Denver to a 3 and out (again we should have felt fairly confident of that 3 and out)? Great, we now likely have 2 possessions left (again thanks to the timeouts). This sets up 2 possible drives to the much easier attained Denver 35 to convert 2 FGs (not to mention it makes the sputtering Denver O feel pressure to call riskier plays - IMHO advantage Patriots D). Yet!! If we fail to get a FG on possession 1, or fail to hold Denver to 3 and out before possession 1? We now know we must have a TD on our next possession. Oh no! We can't convert that. Oh wait! We did end up in that position. Oh wait, we did find a way to score a TD. Oh that's right, we also had to have a 2 point conversion that we shouldn't have needed if we didn't act desperate. Next time have some damn faith that we don't need to act desperate when there is 6 minutes remaining in a one score game.

As I said numerous times in this thread I would have been happy to go for the FG at that juncture. Yes the irony here really is that we might have been better of 9 or 10 points down than 8 but it is what it is.

The coaching staff apparently didnt think we'd be able to significantly improve our OL situation and would struggle to even get into the redzone. From their point of view it was more probable that we can get 1 yard on a single play than 80-90 yards on a full drive.

You can disagree with the decision but trivializing it down to be "meritless and stupid" like some did is unfair and a gross overreaction.

luuked · Jan 25, 2016

RayClay said:
I'm talking about the TV feed. Absolutely saw plays where Pats receivers were bunched to the right and on the left short/intermediate area was an expanse, with zero Broncos, large enough to graze a herd of cattle.

If you don't think this was a problem/reason why we lost, that's fine.

I didnt see that to be honest. Not saying it didnt happen.. most probably I started to focus on the OL too much after a while.

Like I said usually I'd look at the coaches tape / replay of then live feed afterwards to checkout what went wrong but there is no point anymore.. season is over and next years team will be different.

luuked · Jan 25, 2016

condon84 said:
Josh was taken to the woodshed by Phillips today.

Again, what exactly can the OC do if the OL cant even pass a basic competence test and the opponents coverage holds up?

Philips used his pieces pretty well and they kept to their scheme consistently and were very disciplined about it.

Mustangs84 · Jan 25, 2016

Just my 2 cents here.....

At the time of the first 4th down attempt, my initial thought was that they should have kicked. Although I completely understand the thought of going for it. Put the game on your best players shoulders (ie. Brady). HOWEVER, that play call completely took the Brady factor out of play. A play action type play like that might have worked if the Broncos had even 1% respect for the Patriots run game. They were stopping it all day with minimal effort. Ware just went directly after Brady, and Harris just stood there waiting for the play to come back to them. Running some of that cute stuff in other situations would have been fine; that was not the time for it though.

The second time going for it on 4th down, I don't think Bill had much of a choice. He already made the decision his offense wasn't moving the ball well enough that he had to gamble, and nothing had changed in that respect. Right or wrong, I think his first decision played a role here.

My main disappointment with going for it with 6 minutes left is that Bill didn't have enough faith in his defense it seems. They played great today, especially in the second half. This wasn't the defense we had seen in years past with that teams moved the ball with ease on.

ViperGTS · Jan 25, 2016

luuked said:
Again, what exactly can the OC do if the OL cant even pass a basic competence test and the opponents coverage holds up?

Philips used his pieces pretty well and they kept to their scheme consistently and were very disciplined about it.

Run rub routes, crossers. Trips. Reverses. Screens. They didn't use a lot of motion. Bascially, do what you have been doing all season long. Instead they tried the good 'Ol GB offense. Trust me, the GF is a Packers fan so I watched every game this season.

It's almost like someone told them to dumb their offense down.......

TheBostonStraggler · Jan 25, 2016

luuked said:
As I said numerous times in this thread I would have been happy to go for the FG at that juncture. Yes the irony here really is that we might have been better of 9 or 10 points down than 8 but it is what it is.

The coaching staff apparently didnt think we'd be able to significantly improve our OL situation and would struggle to even get into the redzone. From their point of view it was more probable that we can get 1 yard on a single play than 80-90 yards on a full drive.

You can disagree with the decision but trivializing it down to be "meritless and stupid" like some did is unfair and a gross overreaction.

Fair enough. I'm sure BB was singularly focused on getting the score now versus uncertainty of what the lackluster offense may provide in the final 6 minutes. I didn't agree with it but get the idea.
But not only did I not agree with it, to me it reeked of unnecessary desperation. As I see it: the New England Patriots + a one score game + 6 full minutes to go + all 3 timeouts + against an offense that our D had all but slammed the door on (albeit only slammed the door for the second half of the game) should not = desperate decisions (at least not at that point).

Look I'm one of BB's biggest fans. GOAT coach as I see it. But I felt like this call typified the coaching staff for this game and few other recent games: just not as well thought out, game planned, not every edge ready to exploit, not as well decided.
On to the draft...

luuked · Jan 25, 2016

TheBostonStraggler said:
Fair enough. I'm sure BB was singularly focused on getting the score now versus uncertainty of what the lackluster offense may provide in the final 6 minutes. I didn't agree with it but get the idea.
But not only did I not agree with it, to me it reeked of unnecessary desperation. As I see it: the New England Patriots + a one score game + 6 full minutes to go + all 3 timeouts + against an offense that our D had all but slammed the door on (albeit only slammed the door for the second half of the game) should not = desperate decisions (at least not at that point).

Look I'm one of BB's biggest fans. GOAT coach as I see it. But I felt like this call typified the coaching staff for this game and few other recent games: just not as well thought out, game planned, not every edge ready to exploit, not as well decided.
On to the draft...

I wouldn't be necessarily call it desperate just that they played the percentages and it didnt work out. But I understand what you mean and on a certain level they definitely were desperate about the OL.

And I think this is also the biggest valid point of criticism of BB and McD everyone seems to be missing. That they apparently severly overestimated how well the OL would perform while gameplanning which left us scrambling and trying to fix it on the go for the majority of the game.

luuked · Jan 25, 2016

ViperGTS said:
Run rub routes, crossers. Trips. Reverses. Screens. They didn't use a lot of motion. Bascially, do what you have been doing all season long. Instead they tried the good 'Ol GB offense. Trust me, the GF is a Packers fan so I watched every game this season.

It's almost like someone told them to dumb their offense down.......

See I thought they tried a lot of what you asked for.

There were multiple attempts at draws and screens that Denver sniffed out immediately, they used trips a lot but usually Brady had too much pressure up his face to actually do much with it. I dont remember any obvious pick plays but with Denver playing mostly zone I guess they didn't think it would be of any use.

As the game went on we went away from most of that and it looked like Josh and Brady were searching for anything to exploit but couldn't find anything courtesy of the OL.

I am no deep expert in offense but if you have no credible running game and no one is open immediately I am not sure how you can consistently overcome decisively losing the trenches.

SHOWTIME15 · Jan 25, 2016

luuked said:
I wouldn't be necessarily call it desperate just that they played the percentages and it didnt work out. But I understand what you mean and on a certain level they definitely were desperate about the OL.

And I think this is also the biggest valid point of criticism of BB and McD everyone seems to be missing. That they apparently severly overestimated how well the OL would perform while gameplanning which left us scrambling and trying to fix it on the go for the majority of the game.

the difference between this game and the november denver game was demarcus ware.

luuked · Jan 25, 2016

TommyBrady12 said:
the difference between this game and the november denver game was demarcus ware.

I think this was the first DWare game post November in 4-5 years where he actually had any gas left in the tank. Didn't think he would have it in him.

Kontradiction · Jan 25, 2016

People are actually defending going for it? Yeesh. Some of you would defend the coaches committing genocide, I feel like. The Pats had 6 minutes to go and a defense that was stifling Denver. Take the points there, get the ball back, and the rest is history. Not only was going for it a god awful decision, but the play call was horrific too. Play action behind that sieve of an OL? Great idea.

LightSkinSmurf · Jan 25, 2016

KontradictioN said:
People are actually defending going for it? Yeesh. Some of you would defend the coaches committing genocide, I feel like. The Pats had 6 minutes to go and a defense that was stifling Denver. Take the points there, get the ball back, and the rest is history. Not only was going for it a god awful decision, but the play call was horrific too. Play action behind that sieve of an OL? Great idea.

I don't agree with everything you say but I can tell you're a smart football guy. You know some fans can't help but defend belichick and others regardless of the decisions they make. They can do no wrong in their eyes. You have to really reach defending going for it in that position. Listen, if denver was moving the ball easy on our defense all day or even in the 4th quarter, ok, I get it.... But they weren't! Plus, there was PLENTY of time left! I can't for the life of me justify going for it there. Take the damn points and play defense against a below average offense! ************!!!

luuked · Jan 25, 2016

LightSkinSmurf said:
I don't agree with everything you say but I can tell you're a smart football guy. You know some fans can't help but defend belichick and others regardless of the decisions they make. They can do no wrong in their eyes. You have to really reach defending going for it in that position. Listen, if denver was moving the ball easy on our defense all day or even in the 4th quarter, ok, I get it.... But they weren't! Plus, there was PLENTY of time left! I can't for the life of me justify going for it there. Take the damn points and play defense against a below average offense! ************!!!

KontradictioN said:
People are actually defending going for it? Yeesh. Some of you would defend the coaches committing genocide, I feel like. The Pats had 6 minutes to go and a defense that was stifling Denver. Take the points there, get the ball back, and the rest is history. Not only was going for it a god awful decision, but the play call was horrific too. Play action behind that sieve of an OL? Great idea.

What everyone here for whatever reasons seems to fully ignore is that our offense was equally incapable of moving the ball downfield. We were 2/15 (!!) on third downs. Until the first fourth down attempt we went PUNT-PUNT-PUNT-TD*-INT-FG-INT-PUNT-FG-PUNT-PUNT and didn't touch the redzone EXCEPT for the TD drive after the reversed lateral.

I am sure if someone would send Belichick a message from the future to his headset telling him that on the last drive we will convert a 4th & 10 at midfield with a deep pass into double coverage and a few plays later a 4th & 4 in the redzone then he'd happily take the FG. But since we didn't visit the redzone with a full drive of our own until the very first fourth down attempt I am not shocked that BB thought it might be better to try to get one yard here than producing another 80 yard drive with the time left.

Now that boneheaded playcall on 4th & 1 is a different story and is inexcusable. But those two things are not exclusively connected.

voluntarysaftey · Jan 25, 2016

luuked said:
As I said numerous times in this thread I would have been happy to go for the FG at that juncture. Yes the irony here really is that we might have been better of 9 or 10 points down than 8 but it is what it is.

The coaching staff apparently didnt think we'd be able to significantly improve our OL situation and would struggle to even get into the redzone. From their point of view it was more probable that we can get 1 yard on a single play than 80-90 yards on a full drive.

You can disagree with the decision but trivializing it down to be "meritless and stupid" like some did is unfair and a gross overreaction.

At the time it was happening, the first 4th down try I was against -- and I don't recall ever being against a Patriots 4th down attempt.

The problem with 'we can get 1 yard but were struggling to go downfield all day' is that even if we did get 1 yard, we'd still need to get 20 more yards after to get it into the endzone.

Taking 3 pts there, and then having two more attempts to get it into the endzone in hindsight was the right thing to do, and I bet mathematically was also the right thing to do. 3 pts there also guards against a Denver FG -- although at that time I was pretty confident in the D's ability to stop Manning, so 3 Pts + a chance for a TD to win it seemed better to me.

RobertWeathers · Jan 25, 2016

BB saw the game with points at a premium. 3pts wasn't going to cut it and there was no guarantee that they were getting the ball back.

luuked · Jan 25, 2016

voluntarysaftey said:
At the time it was happening, the first 4th down try I was against -- and I don't recall ever being against a Patriots 4th down attempt.

The problem with 'we can get 1 yard but were struggling to go downfield all day' is that even if we did get 1 yard, we'd still need to get 20 more yards after to get it into the endzone.

Taking 3 pts there, and then having two more attempts to get it into the endzone in hindsight was the right thing to do, and I bet mathematically was also the right thing to do. 3 pts there also guards against a Denver FG -- although at that time I was pretty confident in the D's ability to stop Manning, so 3 Pts + a chance for a TD to win it seemed better to me.

I am just gonna quickly paste what I wrote in response to another reply here:

Until the first fourth down attempt we went PUNT-PUNT-PUNT-TD*-INT-FG-INT-PUNT-FG-PUNT-PUNT and didn't touch the redzone EXCEPT for the TD drive after the reversed lateral. The reality is we had not moved in the redzone on our own in the entire game until that fourth down.

I am not sure if mathematically it really works out.

If we go for FG there, this will also change Denver's playcalling because suddenly a TD loses them the game and they might go for more risky plays or stop throwing alltogether and chew up even more clock. If we would have gone for two FGs on the fourth down attempts I doubt there would have been much time left on the clock on the final drive. Because after the second FG, Denver wouldn't have thrown the ball anymore and risked stopping the clock which in turn would had left us without timeouts and about 30-40 seconds less time.

Who knows what would have happened..

RobertWeathers · Jan 25, 2016

condon84 said:
Josh was taken to the woodshed by Phillips today.

If TB had a line that could run and pass block worth a damn it would have been different

fair catch fryar · Jan 25, 2016

robertweathers said:
BB saw the game with points at a premium. 3pts wasn't going to cut it and there was no guarantee that they were getting the ball back.

I disagree because the defense was proving they could hold Denver and the idea that they could force a turnover was there. I said it then and say it still, they should've taken the 3 and not counted on getting a 2-point conversion against that D.

Coaching has been horrible down the stretch and stupid today

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