OT: Bills hire female special teams coach

Haley said:

By the same token, in what way do you see a male coach physically able to dominate a player like Suh? Do you think Adam Gase can take him in a fight? An arm wrestle? How do you think that works if not through physical domination? Personally, I don't think players are managed through physical domination. If that were the case, all the head coaches would be in the hospital.

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Agreed, point made. Although I was thinking more misogyny more so than physicality.

Tunescribe said:

Have you seen me defending that here? No. To the contrary, I've been advocating the opposite. Your example of Geno Auriemma is tell-tale in respect to women not having the opportunity early on to develop the requisite capabilities of coaching at that level. It's different now, for the better. Say you have a male and a female coach of equal expertise: which would you consider better suited to coach a women's team? If you think it doesn't matter, you'd be wrong (in my humble opinion, naturally).

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OK. I'm not saying male gymnastics coaches are bad. There are very good ones, in fact. Norm Chow, coach of Gabby Douglas, for example. And not all of Bela Karolyi's students were opposed to his methods. Kim Zmeskal and Mary Lou Retton, for example, loved being pushed and driven and were able to laugh off the insults and denigrating comments as motivational tactics.

What happened here is as follows:

1. You think women can't be good NFL coaches because they haven't played the game and they can't relate to football players.
2. Patchick very correctly pointed out the Bela Karolyi is girls gymnastics' example of the reverse situation being something no one has or ever had a problem with in society.
3. You responded that perhaps Karolyi had father figure qualities that made him a great coach, even though apparently you knew that was media driven rubbish.Incredibly, you came up with a reason for Karolyi's maleness to be a great asset in coaching girls gymnastics while the opposite is so clearly abhorrent to you.
4. I responded that Karolyi was a hardass and the idea of him being a father figure was laughable media BS. I then provided an example of a US male coach who was also a total jerk, because you seemed to decide that Karolyi must just be a one-off, Eastern European anomaly. He wasn't.
5. But that doesn't mean men aren't good girls gymnastics coaches. Many are. Norm Chow has had great success with his more gentle and restful methods. He coached Gabby Douglas and Shawn Johnson recently.
6. So I believe that if a woman coach understands the game and has insights to provide, the fact that she hasn't played the game and isn't a dude shouldn't mean a damn thing because it doesn't in other sports. Unless you believe, as you seem to, that men can coach any sport, men OR women and be successful but girls can only coach girls because they can't relate to big tough male culture. It's a sexist double standard period.

I should have known some of you would actually take issue with this.

Tunescribe said:

Your example of Geno Auriemma is tell-tale in respect to women not having the opportunity early on to develop the requisite capabilities of coaching at that level. It's different now, for the better.

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Ah, so your point is that success in coaching is based on the opportunity to develop skills, and that it would be for the better if women were given that opportunity in football? Why didn't you say so?

tasmlab said:

Agreed, point made. Although I was thinking more misogyny more so than physicality.

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If that is the only objection, then it is all the more reason to hire this woman. It would be a clear violation of hiring practices to hire solely based on gender while ignoring who was most qualified for the job.

Tunescribe said:

Have you seen me defending that here? No. To the contrary, I've been advocating the opposite. Your example of Geno Auriemma is tell-tale in respect to women not having the opportunity early on to develop the requisite capabilities of coaching at that level. It's different now, for the better. Say you have a male and a female coach of equal expertise: which would you consider better suited to coach a women's team? If you think it doesn't matter, you'd be wrong (in my humble opinion, naturally).

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if things were better now, you would think that the percentage of female coaches would be higher now than before. in fact, the opposite is true.


Women in Intercollegiate Sport: A Longitudinal, National Study Thirty-Seven Year Update

In 1972, the year Title IX was enacted, more than 90% of women’s teams were coached by females.

By 1978, the year of mandatory Title IX compliance, the percentage had dropped to 58.2. Some of the large change in the early years from 1972 to 1978 was due to the massive increase in the number of teams offered for women (an increase from 2.5 in 1972 to 5.61 teams per school just six years later in 1978).

Historically, coaches for women’s teams came from the ranks of physical educators who were also teaching. Prior to Title IX, few of the female coaches were paid for their coaching duties. After Title IX, coaches of women’s teams began to be paid for their efforts thus making the jobs a bit more inviting.

Today, coaches come less from the ranks of physical educators and more from the ranks of former athletes.

In 2014, 43.4 percent of the coaches of women’s teams are females. Put another way, in 2014 4154 women’s teams have a female coach.

There are approximately 250 to 300 female head coaches of men’s teams. Conversely, there are 5427 male head coaches for women’s teams; that is about 20 times greater than the number of females coaching males.

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in the big women's sport, college basketball, the percentage of female coaches has gone from almost 80% in 1977 to around 60% in 2014. gymnastics, the number has gone from 70% to 58%. my guess is that those two women's sports pay the most, so you see male coaches gravitating toward those sports.



most athletic directors are male, and male ADs tend to hire a lower proportion of female coaches:

Bella*chick said:

OK. I'm not saying male gymnastics coaches are bad. There are very good ones, in fact. Norm Chow, coach of Gabby Douglas, for example. And not all of Bela Karolyi's students were opposed to his methods. Kim Zmeskal and Mary Lou Retton, for example, loved being pushed and driven and were able to laugh off the insults and denigrating comments as motivational tactics.

What happened here is as follows:

1. You think women can't be good NFL coaches because they haven't played the game and they can't relate to football players.

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My discussion has centered primarily on females coaching males in general. I will maintain that generally speaking, men are better suited to coaching men and women are better suited than men to coach women. But if the Bills' new hire works out well for them, fine. I'm not opposed to it.

Bella*chick said:

2. Patchick very correct pointed out the Bela Karolyi is girls gymnastics' example of the reverse situation being something no one has or ever had a problem with in society.

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Is this true -- no one had a problem with his abusiveness? A strong argument can be made that he was ill suited to his role.

Bella*chick said:

3. You responded that perhaps Karolyi had father figure qualities that made him a great coach, even though apparently you knew that was media driven rubbish. Incredibly, you came up with a reason for Karolyi's maleness to be a great asset in coaching girls gymnastics while the opposite is so clearly abhorrent to you.

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You're putting words in my mouth. I said "perhaps Bela Karolyi succeeded in spite of gender differences as a father figure to little girls"; upon further consideration, and thanks my being reminded of his abusiveness, he more accurately was a product of the times and specifically male-centric gymnastics culture.

Bella*chick said:

4. I responded that Karolyi was a hardass and the idea of him being a father figure was laughable media BS. I then provided an example of a US male coach who was also a total jerk, because you seemed to decide that Karolyi must just be a one-off, Eastern European anomaly. He wasn't.

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No, I suggested that Eastern European gymnastics culture drove the sport's male-centric approach to coaching in that era. It wasn't tied to Karolyi specifically. I guess I'm not following where Auriemma enters that portion of the discussion.

Bella*chick said:

5. But that doesn't mean men aren't good girls gymnastics coaches. Many are. Norm Chow has had great success with his more gentle and restful methods. He coached Gabby Douglas and Shawn Johnson recently.

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OK.

Bella*chick said:

6. So I believe that if a woman coach understand the game and has insights to provide, the fact that she hasn't played the game and isn't a dude shouldn't mean a damn thing because it doesn't in other sports.

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Did you play interscholastic sports? If so, you'd know firsthand that coaching encompasses more than understanding the game and providing technical insights.

Bella*chick said:

Unless you believe, as you seem to, that men can coach any sport, men OR women and be successful but girls can only coach girls because they can't relate to big tough male culture. It's a sexist double standard period.

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Bah. I never said anything of the sort. I firmly believe that females are better suited than men to coach females for reasons unrelated to Xs and Os. And, vice versa.

Oh, ok. I Understand your point better now. So you think men generally should not be coaching women's sports either?

OK, then at least you are consistent. That's more than can be said of the rest of society.

And yeah, no one really had a problem with Karolyi's abuses. Truthfully, it wasn't much publicized until many of his gymnasts grew up and started writing memoirs. The big teddy bear persona was pretty much the narrative even up through the 1996 Olympics.

I had an early reply all typed out, but I elected to sit back and see how it played out, instead. I have not been disappointed.

bbobbo said:

if things were better now, you would think that the percentage of female coaches would be higher now than before. in fact, the opposite is true.


Women in Intercollegiate Sport: A Longitudinal, National Study Thirty-Seven Year Update



in the big women's sport, college basketball, the percentage of female coaches has gone from almost 80% in 1977 to around 60% in 2014. gymnastics, the number has gone from 70% to 58%. my guess is that those two women's sports pay the most, so you see male coaches gravitating toward those sports.

most athletic directors are male, and male ADs tend to hire a lower proportion of female coaches:

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I'd have to spend more time with this than I have at the moment, but my assumption is/was that most colleges have separate men's and women's athletic departments. From your download it looks like male administrators are doing their female programs a disservice.

patchick said:

Ah, so your point is that success in coaching is based on the opportunity to develop skills, and that it would be for the better if women were given that opportunity in football? Why didn't you say so?

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Yeah, well, you can cherry pick out-of-context gotchas all you want.

By the way, isn't "chick" a sexist term?

Tunescribe said:

By the way, isn't "chick" a sexist term?

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In my context, it is an ironic tongue in cheek play on the coach's name. I consider it perfection.

Bella*chick said:

In my context, it is an ironic tongue in cheek play on the coach's name. I consider it perfection.

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Just like a woman, wanting it both ways. Patchick would seem to have a less convenient rationale.

pazrul72 said:

Assuming she can actually coach I have zero issue with this. How many former players coach? Vrabel is one of the few that comes to mind. Mike singletary was one of the best LB's to ever play and bombed hilariously as a head coach. Yeah Bellichick played center in college but that was at a tiny division III school and he was never any good. Still the greatest coach that ever was. Playing and coaching are two VERY different skill sets and the only current patriot I could see having the chips to make the jump is Brady. So the fact that a woman has never played means squat if she understands concepts and can teach them.

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Doesn't the Pats coaching staff only have one former player (a recent hire)?

Tunescribe said:

Just like a woman, wanting it both ways. Patchick would seem to have a less convenient rationale.

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Well, I could argue considering that the actual word chick appears in the spelling of the coach's name, all I did was twist the word Bella. Additionally, I find the imagery of a bunch of beautiful little baby chickens captivating.

I had almost completely forgotten about the female ref until reminded by this thread. So tell me, those who wore moaning about it when it happened, has it changed the game in horrific ways for you? Do you even notice she's there? Because I sure as hell didn't except when that non-story about BB trying to explain something to her happened.

Bella*chick said:

I had almost completely forgotten about the female ref until reminded by this thread. So tell me, those who wore moaning about it when it happened, has it changed the game in horrific ways for you? Do you even notice she's there? Because I sure as hell didn't except when that non-story about BB trying to explain something to her happened.

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I thought she did a pretty lousy job in the Eagles game, but I don't think that is because she lacks a Y chromosome.

Bella*chick said:

Well, I could argue considering that the actual word chick appears in the spelling of the coach's name, all I did was twist the word Bella. Additionally, I find the imagery of a bunch of beautiful little baby chickens captivating.

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So you're saying Bella"Chick" is not a play on words identifying your gender in a way that many of a certain ideological persuasion would consider a perpetuation of an unfair patriarchal society??
Just askin...

TheBostonStraggler said:

So you're saying Bella"Chick" is not a play on words identifying your gender in a way that many of a certain ideological persuasion would consider a perpetuation of an unfair patriarchal society??
Just askin...

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It's whatever anyone wants it to be, should the interpretation occur. I have had more than one person assume I'm male in any event.

I might also point out there's a rather large difference between me using a play on words as a joke and the actual "perpetuation of an unfair patriarchal society."

Just answerin'...