Tom Brady voted 2nd best player in NFL history.

Elijah said:

Elway was before my time but from the numbers it looks like he was just the original Manning hype machine who got lucky and won 2 SBs at the end with Terrell Davis. His season by season stat lines are very unimpressive, even in context.

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Elway was the real deal. He carried his teams to the playoffs. They lost their first SB to the Giants (BB defensive coach) , their second in a strike year to the Redskins and their third to Joe Montana's monster 49 er team. All three were Dan Reeves coached teams.

But you're right about winning with TD. Elway was a shell of himself during the last 2 SB's.

KontradictioN said:

The list has all sorts of issues, but I don't have a problem with Montana taking the top spot for now. He won more Super Bowls and did it in an era where DB's could literally mug WR's down the field. All that being said, Brady winning Lombardi #5, should it happen this year, should all but seal the deal on that conversation. Yes, Montana did it in an era when defenses rule. Brady will have done it in an era that was designed for such a thing not to happen.

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He also did it when there was no salary cap. You think tommy wouldn't like to have that? Brady had 3 superbowl before they change the rules.

primetime said:

If #1 isn't Jerry Rice, the poll isn't worth the bandwidth it would take to look at it.

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stickum

Well I made a list of my top 10 players of all-time. This only includes players that played in the SB era or pretty damn close to it though cause if you go back too far it is too different of a game.

#1 LT
#2 Jerry Rice
#3 John Hannah
#4 Reggie White
#5 Tom Brady
#6 Walter Payton
#7 Jim Brown
#8 **** Butkus
#9 Joe Montana
#10 Deacon Jones

HMs Ronnie Lott, Joe Green, Anthony Munoz

So right now I have Brady as the 5th best overall player of all time (I did not include STs... just cause )

If he wins ring #5 though I would certainly move him higher. Would he be #1 though? Hard to say. I'd need to think about it more.

I'm fine with Brady being behind Montana, although one more SB will end that debate. Brady being behind Manning is stupid beyond comprehension, though. Can't even play the 'cheater' card anymore, not just because it's nonsense but because Manning took HGH.

Tony2046 said:

Elway was the real deal. He carried his teams to the playoffs. They lost their first SB to the Giants (BB defensive coach) , their second in a strike year to the Redskins and their third to Joe Montana's monster 49 er team. All three were Dan Reeves coached teams.

But you're right about winning with TD. Elway was a shell of himself during the last 2 SB's.

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What changed between 1992 and 1993? His TD-INT ratios were awful before that and pretty good after.

Top 5 of all time

#1 TB (Joe Montana is not even close to him, great player, but TB is in a league of his own)
#2 Jim Brown
#3 LT
#4 Joe Montana
#5 Deion Sanders

Joe Montana played on a stacked 49ers team.

Joe Montana TD-Int ratio is 273:139 completion pct 63.2
Tom Brady TD-Int ratio is 428:150 completion pct 63.6

It's not even close. People forget that they 49ers had a fantastic defense and running game

It is close. There's not some astronomical gap in talent between the greatest players of all time. And we haven't won a Super Bowl without having a good defense. Football is a team sport. Pisses me off how people just say "not even close" like they can accurately gauge the difference in talent.

Elijah said:

What changed between 1992 and 1993? His TD-INT ratios were awful before that and pretty good after.

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Good question.

The Broncos fired Reeves in 1992. Reeves and Elway did not get along.

I like the TD-INT stat but it can be misleading.

If you compare ATT - INT you would see a different picture. (Which also helps Favre as well)

Of course this doesn't paint the whole picture and my opinion of Elway is based on my recollection which isn't always the best.

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/29/brett-favre-and-the-interception-myth/ (<<< link)

QUARTERBACK: INTERCEPTION PCT.

Arnie Herber: 9.0 (1,175 attempts, 106 INTs)

Bob Waterfield: 7.9% (1,617 attempts, 128 INTs)

Sid Luckman: 7.6% (1,744 attempts, 132 INTs)

George Blanda: 6.9% (4,007 attempts, 277 INTs)

Sammy Baugh: 6.8% (2,995 attempts, 203 INTs)

Bobby Layne: 6.6% (3,700 attempts, 243 INTs)

Norm Van Brocklin: 6.1% (2,895 attempts, 178 INTs)

Joe Namath: 5.8% (3,762 attempts, 220 INTs)

Y.A. Tittle: 5.6% (4,395 attempts, 248 INTs)

Terry Bradshaw: 5.4% (3,901 attempts, 210 INTs)

Otto Graham: 5.1% (2,626 attempts, 135 INTs)

Bob Griese: 5.0% (3,429 attempts, 172 INTs)

Johnny Unitas: 4.9% (5,186 attempts, 253 INTs)

Len Dawson: 4.9% (3,741 attempts, 183 INTs)

Bart Starr: 4.4% (3,149 attempts, 138 INTs)

Sonny Jurgensen: 4.4% (4,262 attempts, 189 INTs)

Dan Fouts: 4.3% (5,604 attempts, 242 INTs)

Fran Tarkenton: 4.1% (6,467 attempts, 266 INTs)

Roger Staubach: 3.7% (2,958 attempts, 109 INTs)

Jim Kelly: 3.7% (4,779 attempts, 175 INTs)

Boomer Esiason: 3.5% (5,205 attempts, 184 INTs)

Warren Moon: 3.4% (6,823 attempts, 233 INTs)

Brett Favre: 3.3% (9,280 attempts, 310 INTs)

John Elway: 3.1 (7,250 attempts, 226 INTs)

Dan Marino: 3.0 (8,358 attempts, 252 INTs)

Troy Aikman: 3.0 (4,715 attempts, 141 INTs)

The stingiest QBs in the Hall are Joe Montana and Steve Young, each of whom had a 2.6 interception percentage. Current “overprotective” stars include Peyton Manning (2.8 percent), Drew Brees (2.7), Tom Brady (2.3) and Donovan McNabb (2.1)

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It doesn't make sense for Montana to be ahead of Brady at all. Same number of SB wins but Tom has made it to the game more often, and because he's lost it twice that somehow means he's not as good? What? I wouldn't have an issue with the list if someone OTHER than a QB was ahead of Tom, like LT or Brown. After that we can talk about stats, which Montana isn't even close to Brady in.

[Updated: EDITED FOR ACCURACY (Thank you, robertweathers!) I plead too much age and too little alcohol! ]

For me, these lists are fun but very subjective. Even if they weren't, there are too many complex factors to consider. It's football, the ultimate team sport.

Further complicating things: there are at least two important dimensions here, "Position" and "Era Played'.

Difficult = Same Position - Same Era (Brady - Manning*)

Very Difficult = Different Position - Same Era. (Brady - J.J.Watt)

Very Difficult = Same Position - Different Era. (Brady - Montana)

Ridiculously Difficult = Different Position - Different Era. (Brady - Jim Brown)

All that having been said, Brady is the GOAT. No question. No qualification. Hands down.

Also, as a major factor in all this, Brady rises to his greatest heights in the greatest moments.

In his six Super Bowl starts, Brady is FIVE FOR SIX in final drives. He has led the offense down the field, under the greatest possible pressure, with million of people watching, and finished the deal all but once.

Unfortunately, though everyone here remembers, many people nationally forget that he also did this in his GREATEST LOSS, when our defense couldn't finish the deal. (Although they did 4 out of 6 times, which was terrific!)

Contrast that with the "One and Done" Record Holder. In the big situations, with all the pressure, he is often overwhelmed. He withers. He does not rise up.

Montana is FOUR FOR FOUR in a different era, but very impressive nonetheless. In the conversation, but not so much as time marches forward.

If I need some points in the closing minutes of the Super Bowl, my quarterback is Tom Brady!

Mack Herron said:

SGOAT?

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Manning would be Greatest Of All Time: Steroid Enhanced. Hmmm.... What's the acronym for that?

ChessToCheckers said:

For me, these lists are fun but very subjective. Even if they weren't, there are too many complex factors to consider. It's football, the ultimate team sport.

Further complicating things: there are at least two important dimensions here, "Position" and "Era Played'.

Difficult = Same Position - Same Era (Brady - Manning*)

Very Difficult = Different Position - Same Era. (Brady - J.J.Watt)

Very Difficult = Same Position - Different Era. (Brady - Montana)

Ridiculously Difficult = Different Position - Different Era. (Brady - Jim Brown)

All that having been said, Brady is the GOAT. No question. No qualification. Hands down.

Also, as a major factor in all this, Brady rises to his greatest heights in the greatest moments.

In his six Super Bowl starts, Brady is SIX FOR SIX in final drives. He has led the offense down the field, under the greatest possible pressure, with million of people watching, and finished the deal every time.

Unfortunately, though everyone here remembers, many people nationally forget that he also did this in his two loses, when our defense couldn't finish the deal. (Although they did 4 out of 6 times, which was terrific!)

Contrast that with the "One and Done" Record Holder. In the big situations, with all the pressure, he is often overwhelmed. He withers. He does not rise up.

Montana is FOUR FOR FOUR in a different era, but very impressive nonetheless. In the conversation, but not so much as time marches forward.

If I need some points in the closing minutes of the Super Bowl, my quarterback is Tom Brady!

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Great post but in SB 46 TB12 ended w/ Punt, INT, Punt and failed hail mary.

But 5 for 6 still kicks ass!

Tony2046 said:

Good question.

The Broncos fired Reeves in 1992. Reeves and Elway did not get along.

I like the TD-INT stat but it can be misleading.

If you compare ATT - INT you would see a different picture. (Which also helps Favre as well)

Of course this doesn't paint the whole picture and my opinion of Elway is based on my recollection which isn't always the best.

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/29/brett-favre-and-the-interception-myth/ (<<< link)

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Also, there were some other changes. Shannon Sharpe made a huge step up on his development curve, basically hitting his full stride in 1993, and Elway began throwing to his RBs even more often.

BostonWolverine said:

This is pretty impressive considering it's a national poll. Most of the country seems to hate Brady, yet they still can admit he's an all-time player.

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I have tons of friends who hate Brady but acknowledge his greatness. In fact, that's why about half of them hate him. The other half still hold on the the "he's soft" narrative.

PatsBoy12 said:

The other half still hold on the the "he's soft" narrative.

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Thats what I will never understand.

The softness perception is based on the magazine shoots.

I can- without gaining a better understanding follow the whiny, crybaby, Isiah Thomas, Danny Ainge, John McEnroe act..................... but soft??

KontradictioN said:

The list has all sorts of issues, but I don't have a problem with Montana taking the top spot for now. He won more Super Bowls and did it in an era where DB's could literally mug WR's down the field. All that being said, Brady winning Lombardi #5, should it happen this year, should all but seal the deal on that conversation. Yes, Montana did it in an era when defenses rule. Brady will have done it in an era that was designed for such a thing not to happen.

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Brady won 3 Superbowls in, rule wise, the same era as Montana. The emphasis on illegal contact was 2004 and the emphasis on defenseless receivers was 2009. Unless I'm forgetting something, those were the two main changes steering the game towards offense.

Brady is 2/2 in Superbowls with old school rules and was 3/4 in Superbowls before defenseless receiver rules. Now at 4/6 over all, with 9 AFCCG appearances, he's well beyond Montana on achievements. Another ring would push Joe and Terry down into 2nd tier status.

Think of greatest like this, you're building a team tomorrow and can start with any player past or present in their prime. Who do you pick first, who makes the most difference?

I think Brady wins hands down.

Then maybe you go looking for an RB and then maybe some defense.

Here's a question, how far up is Gronk on this list, top 10, top 20? Dude is a huge difference maker.

varjao said:

huh? He's not even the greatest Celtic of all time

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You must be joking. If not then you need a history lesson.