OT: Chris Grier Rumored To Be New GM in Miami

Patsrock said:

12 guys he has a part in drafting 1995-1999 were on those teams. 10 of them played in one of the Super Bowls. And 4 were on all 3 rosters. And only 14 players from his last roster 1999 were on the 2001 roster. 16 if you include suspended Glenn and Katzenmoyer. 1995 was the year he was put in front office position of Player Personel

1995
Ty Law,Ted Johnson

1996
Mill0y,Bruschi, Sullivan,Glenn*

1997
Brandon Mitchell

1998
Tebucky Jones, Rod Rutledge

1999
Woody,Faulk,Katzenmoyer*

Click to expand...

Good info.
Pretty sure in 95 BP was still the de facto last word at the draft. Also willing to bet Parcells would have tangibly influenced 96 despite his reported storming out of the draft. Hard for me to imagine BP's personality being involved in 90+% of the process without getting his way on some of it.

While there are plenty of details that one can drill down into that may point away from bad Grier decisions (an unfortunate injury, poor coaching etc), from a non granular viewpoint the record of Grier as the lone, undisputed, final word and chooser of the groceries/Patriots decision making is poor.
It is this 3 year Grier legacy that consists of drafting the equivalent of a handful of solid role players, of overruling one of the most successful coaches for his time (Parcells), of running a team whose success graph went 10 wins to 9 wins to 8 wins, and of disrespecting the chain of command/overriding the importance of the HC over a guy (Carroll) who eventually went on to run extremely successful programs at USC and Seattle, and is arguably one of the most successful coaches of today's NFL.

For those who dispute the poor rating Grier gets, what is incorrect about what I posted?

Patsrock said:

I agree, was just pointing out the years he was at least part of the discussion. He became Player Personel director in 1995.

Click to expand...

Charley Armey had some influence on the great picks. Just look to when Grier took over with two extra 1sts, extra 2nd and extra 3rd and 4th in 97 and 99 and it's a disaster.

Brandon Mitchell was a great pick? He blocked a kick in 2001, then was dumped as a young man and later went to jail for drugs. spier was a decent DE, unfortunately the team had been trying to transition to a 3-4, so he was useless to us and we dumped him.

Woody was a great first round pick? Overweight all the time and Compton had to move over to center because Woody couldn't snap to the QB.

If you send a brain damaged kid to the store and stuff a $100 in his pocket, he's likely to buy something useful, but that doesn'tmake him a shrewd shopper.

1997, with extra 3rd and 4th round picks was a goose egg. 1998, extra 1st and 2nd. sorry about edwards, but that's a waste also. tebucky Jones was never a good safety, he knocked down as many team mates as offensive players. Simmons,useless, Rutledge, useless.

1998, 2 1sts again. They got Kevin Faulk with a second. Though they likely could have got him for less and his own guts was the only thing that kept him from being a washout, the proverbial blind pig gets an acorn sometimes.

A kid with a draft magazine and some darts could have out performed him and if they read a couple articles about the coaching schemes, by a lot.

Grier performed worse than random chance. He sucked.

TheBostonStraggler said:

Good info.
Pretty sure in 95 BP was still the de facto last word at the draft. Also willing to bet Parcells would have tangibly influenced 96 despite his reported storming out of the draft. Hard for me to imagine BP's personality being involved in 90+% of the process without getting his way on some of it.

While there are plenty of details that one can drill down into that may point away from bad Grier decisions (an unfortunate injury, poor coaching etc), from a non granular viewpoint the record of Grier as the lone, undisputed, final word and chooser of the groceries/Patriots decision making is poor.
It is this 3 year Grier legacy that consists of drafting the equivalent of a handful of solid role players, of overruling one of the most successful coaches for his time (Parcells), of running a team whose success graph went 10 wins to 9 wins to 8 wins, and of disrespecting the chain of command/overriding the importance of the HC over a guy (Carroll) who eventually went on to run extremely successful programs at USC and Seattle, and is arguably one of the most successful coaches of today's NFL.

For those who dispute the poor rating Grier gets, what is incorrect about what I posted?

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure, just by evidence and the reactions, that Parcells set up the 96 draft and was only overruled on the Glenn pick, with Kraft nosing in.

1st, are you telling me Grier picked Milloy and Bruschi, not the team that picked Law, McGinent and such? look at grier's record with defensive players. It's pitiful. He had no knowledge or interest.

Kraft was sick of Parcells and had Grier go for the sexy receiver choice. Grier was only interested in high picks and offense, though he was miserable with both.

Even though Glenn was talented, the pick was wrong and not because he was a psycho alcoholic. That draft was the strongest draft at wide receiver ever in the NFL. Better receivers than Glenn [all pros, 12-15 year starters] were available in the low first and multiples in every round down to Joe Horn in the fifth. I'm sure Parcells was going to deal that pick and get a defensive player plus marvin harrison, Eric Moulds, Kennison, Muhammad etc. etc.

Keyshawn Johnson, Terry Glenn, Eddie Kennison, Marvin Harrison, Eric Moulds, Bobby Engram, Terrell Owens, Muhsin Muhammad, Amani Toomer, Jermaine Lewis, and Joe Horn

Click to expand...

RxJock1120 said:

I was never a fan of Grier, but in the Brady 6 documentary, the Michigan staff did mention that Bobby Grier was the only team exec, on behalf of the Pats, to call to inquire about Brady. I remember thinking back then that was weird, since he was not part of BB's staff. Can someone else confirm/dispute this???

Click to expand...

IMHO that's reaching pretty far to try and manufacture praise for Grier. Sure it could be true/possible that behind closed doors Grier went to bat for choosing Brady and the only one to do so. It is also possible Grier was handed a list of players to start calling to help do mundane legwork on a list BB/SP/new staff created. It is also possible Grier said Brady wasn't a good choice. Whatever, I'd be shocked if Grier had BB's ear on any say in drafting matters whatsoever. Grier knew he was on his way out and BB knew he knew he was getting bounced. Not exactly the guy you want helping decide the future is it.

A fair reckoning of Grier is take the 3 years of him as the undisputed ruler of all Patriot player personnel decision making HC'd by his hand chosen guy. Some may add the fourth year (Glenn) but, just IMHO, that still is far from a Grier only show. That's a show that had BP and some of his people interwoven all over the place.

RayClay said:

Charley Armey had some influence on the great picks. Just look to when Grier took over with two extra 1sts, extra 2nd and extra 3rd and 4th in 97 and 99 and it's a disaster.

Brandon Mitchell was a great pick? He blocked a kick in 2001, then was dumped as a young man and later went to jail for drugs. spier was a decent DE, unfortunately the team had been trying to transition to a 3-4, so he was useless to us and we dumped him.

Woody was a great first round pick? Overweight all the time and Compton had to move over to center because Woody couldn't snap to the QB.

If you send a brain damaged kid to the store and stuff a $100 in his pocket, he's likely to buy something useful, but that doesn'tmake him a shrewd shopper.

1997, with extra 3rd and 4th round picks was a goose egg. 1998, extra 1st and 2nd. sorry about edwards, but that's a waste also. tebucky Jones was never a good safety, he knocked down as many team mates as offensive players. Simmons,useless, Rutledge, useless.

1998, 2 1sts again. They got Kevin Faulk with a second. Though they likely could have got him for less and his own guts was the only thing that kept him from being a washout, the proverbial blind pig gets an acorn sometimes.

A kid with a draft magazine and some darts could have out performed him and if they read a couple articles about the coaching schemes, by a lot.

Grier performed worse than random chance. He sucked.

Click to expand...

Again. I agree Grier sucked. Don't have to sell me on it at all.

why torture yourself like this?

what possible good can come from wondering about Pete the Cleaner's mythical fourth season?

he took a playoff team and ran it into the ground...Booby Grier missed on 29 out of 31 draft picks during that span...I'm just sorry it took Kraft so long to smell the garbage.


Last edited: Jan 14, 2010


Joker, Jan 14, 2010

Nothing has changed for me six years later....

I wish him well, anyway. He might be good. Dad was not and the situation was Kraft's fault, which is probably because Parcells was an ******* when he didn't need to be. Such is life.

Supposedly Grier went behind Parcells' back via Krafty Bob on the Terry Glenn pick. Grier had Krafts ear & Got Kraft to make the Glenn move and that was the beginning of the end for Tuna. Tuna was livid that Kraft sided with Grier and Grier had Krafty on speed dial... At least that's how one of the local media guys - maybe Mannix, Hobson maybe even Borges recounted the story some time ago...

RayClay said:

I'm pretty sure, just by evidence and the reactions, that Parcells set up the 96 draft and was only overruled on the Glenn pick, with Kraft nosing in.

1st, are you telling me Grier picked Milloy and Bruschi, not the team that picked Law, McGinent and such? look at grier's record with defensive players. It's pitiful. He had no knowledge or interest.

Kraft was sick of Parcells and had Grier go for the sexy receiver choice. Grier was only interested in high picks and offense, though he was miserable with both.

Even though Glenn was talented, the pick was wrong and not because he was a psycho alcoholic. That draft was the strongest draft at wide receiver ever in the NFL. Better receivers than Glenn [all pros, 12-15 year starters] were available in the low first and multiples in every round down to Joe Horn in the fifth. I'm sure Parcells was going to deal that pick and get a defensive player plus marvin harrison, Eric Moulds, Kennison, Muhammad etc. etc.

Click to expand...

No. My message must have got crossed. I do not think Grier was responsible for 96 except Glenn. I do assume he was certainly involved given the expanded position he now had/was coming into, however, you don't have BP in the mix and expect to be calling the shots anywhere even close to unabated. It just wouldn't be the guy I understand to be BP.
The only way Grier can be fairly judged, IMHO, is by using the 3 years of his unquestioned rule, with the sideline being run by his handpicked guy(guys), and the office being much more purged of BP's minions. And if you look at these 3 years it cannot be rated even a remote 'on some level' success given the draft results, W/L trajectory, and given he wrongly overruled two of the upper echelon successful coaches of the modern NFL era.

Kraft was a damned dope for doing what he did with BP. Never even mind the promoting of Grier as the top dog, he should have known that it had to be either Parcells or it had to be someone else. But trying to give Bill friggin Parcells a football player boss, one who held very little gravitas within the game, was appallingly lacking in consideration. Thankfully Kraft reevaluated his mindset and then most thankfully went the extra 10 country miles to land BB. Too bad Kraft didn't trust his first instinct then do the same fight to get BB at the end of the SB loss. I recall Kraft mentioned wanting to get BB to take over for BP but waffled on it because he thought BB was BP's guy to the core (as we know now he certainly wasn't).

Ahhh what memories...

Joker said:

why torture yourself like this?

what possible good can come from wondering about Pete the Cleaner's mythical fourth season?

he took a playoff team and ran it into the ground...Booby Grier missed on 29 out of 31 draft picks during that span...I'm just sorry it took Kraft so long to smell the garbage.


Last edited: Jan 14, 2010


Joker, Jan 14, 2010

Nothing has changed for me six years later....

Click to expand...

I found a saved post of mine that dates back to the AOL Patriot board in 1999. It said: "Just everyone wait and see. Chris Canty will be the best CB this league has seen in many years".

TheBostonStraggler said:

Too bad Kraft didn't trust his first instinct then do the same fight to get BB at the end of the SB loss. I recall Kraft mentioned wanting to get BB to take over for BP but waffled on it because he thought BB was BP's guy to the core (as we know now he certainly wasn't).

Ahhh what memories...

Click to expand...

Well, Kraft and Parcells had to come to a head, then Kraft was a bit silly holding the stop watch for Tebucky and stuff.

I do think people underestimate how careful Kraft is with politics and it's a strength. As incendiary as the BB signing was,it would have been a war had he tried to grab BB right after Parcells.

Letting BB make the choice and things cool off was better for the situation IMO.

RayClay said:

Well, Kraft and Parcells had to come to a head, then Kraft was a bit silly holding the stop watch for Tebucky and stuff.

I do think people underestimate how careful Kraft is with politics and it's a strength. As incendiary as the BB signing was,it would have been a war had he tried to grab BB right after Parcells.

Letting BB make the choice and things cool off was better for the situation IMO.

Click to expand...

You make a good argument, no doubt.
Parcell's did to some degree partially bail out before a SB(ouch), did take some Patriots personnel with him(I believe) and he pulled the Martin poison pill thing not too far afterwards. And we did ultimately end up paying a hefty price for BB (1st and a 4th?) including being left in limbo. While your point is a good one there is an argument for 'Get BB and F Parcells' that Kraft could have done and the border war would still have been the border war we had.

Joker said:

why torture yourself like this?

what possible good can come from wondering about Pete the Cleaner's mythical fourth season?

he took a playoff team and ran it into the ground...Booby Grier missed on 29 out of 31 draft picks during that span...I'm just sorry it took Kraft so long to smell the garbage.


Last edited: Jan 14, 2010


Joker, Jan 14, 2010

Nothing has changed for me six years later....

Click to expand...

Well if nothing has changed then you haven't been following the NFL much the last six years, J. There are a lot of myths surrounding the end of the Parcels regime and the end of Carroll era. One of them was that Pete ran the team into the ground. Here are some others.

Myth 1. Parcells was great at "picking the groceries". the fact is that he was NEVER a great personnel guy. Everyone knew it and that's why he never had final say with the Giants and why he demanded it here, and very place else he went. The fact is that when Bill got to pick the groceries in Dallas and Miami the results weren't exactly stellar.

Myth 2. We all know Terry Glenn's flaws that eventually led to his demise here, but there IS no Superbowl for the Pats in 95, without him.

Ray, there might have been better WR's that came out of that draft, but that is second guessing at its worst. The fact is that Parcells was dead wrong and acted like the petulant ego maniac he was. He ran to his media buddies and threw his owner under the bus, and then made a deal to get out of town while he was still under contract here and took one of our best players with him. Bill Parcells - good HC - below average personnel guy - good short term leader - bad person.

Myth 3 - Pete Carrol was a bad HC here. Simply not true.

a. Carrol never had much say in personnel acquisition and was left with the 3 worst drafts in the last 3 decades. What did you say, J, 3 for 31? Hard to succeed on add depth with draft results like that.

b. Bob Kraft publicly admits that he never gave Pete the kind of support he gave Bill, and he regrets it.

c. Yes Pete had talent on his team, but it was like the top talent on a lot NFL team. Paper thin. A great starting 22 and nothing behind it. So in his last 2 years when the injuries started to mount up, there was nothing to fall back on due to bad drafting and horrible cap management. None of which was Pete's fault.

d. Still Pete managed never to have a losing season here. In fact if the great Adam Venatieri hadn't lost 2 games in 99 with 2 missed FG's, the Pats might have wound up 10-6 that last year.

e. At that time, Pete wasn't the greatest HC in the league, but he was far from the worst. He also didn't get the support he deserved from the rest of the football operation. Clearly he learned a lot from his time here, as well as Kraft and happily BOTH have gone on to bigger and better things.

patfanken said:

Well if nothing has changed then you haven't been following the NFL much the last six years, J. There are a lot of myths surrounding the end of the Parcels regime and the end of Carroll era. One of them was that Pete ran the team into the ground. Here are some others.

Myth 1. Parcells was great at "picking the groceries". the fact is that he was NEVER a great personnel guy. Everyone knew it and that's why he never had final say with the Giants and why he demanded it here, and very place else he went. The fact is that when Bill got to pick the groceries in Dallas and Miami the results weren't exactly stellar.

Myth 2. We all know Terry Glenn's flaws that eventually led to his demise here, but there IS no Superbowl for the Pats in 95, without him.

Ray, there might have been better WR's that came out of that draft, but that is second guessing at its worst. The fact is that Parcells was dead wrong and acted like the petulant ego maniac he was. He ran to his media buddies and threw his owner under the bus, and then made a deal to get out of town while he was still under contract here and took one of our best players with him. Bill Parcells - good HC - below average personnel guy - good short term leader - bad person.

Myth 3 - Pete Carrol was a bad HC here. Simply not true.

a. Carrol never had much say in personnel acquisition and was left with the 3 worst drafts in the last 3 decades. What did you say, J, 3 for 31? Hard to succeed on add depth with draft results like that.

b. Bob Kraft publicly admits that he never gave Pete the kind of support he gave Bill, and he regrets it.

c. Yes Pete had talent on his team, but it was like the top talent on a lot NFL team. Paper thin. A great starting 22 and nothing behind it. So in his last 2 years when the injuries started to mount up, there was nothing to fall back on due to bad drafting and horrible cap management. None of which was Pete's fault.

d. Still Pete managed never to have a losing season here. In fact if the great Adam Venatieri hadn't lost 2 games in 99 with 2 missed FG's, the Pats might have wound up 10-6 that last year.

e. At that time, Pete wasn't the greatest HC in the league, but he was far from the worst. He also didn't get the support he deserved from the rest of the football operation. Clearly he learned a lot from his time here, as well as Kraft and happily BOTH have gone on to bigger and better things.

Click to expand...

You're not even making sense,I won't bother.

I never said anything about Pete Carroll. If you weren't so focused on you're "Parcell was worthless" rant you'd realize that.

TheBostonStraggler said:

I found a saved post of mine that dates back to the AOL Patriot board in 1999. It said: "Just everyone wait and see. Chris Canty will be the best CB this league has seen in many years".

Click to expand...

Kudos on owning up. I'd have taken that out in the back yard at 2 am and buried it under the roses, never to be seen again.

A trip down "NFL Chaos Avenue" serves as a reminder to us all that as much as we criticize BB and his crew for draft picks.. nothing compares to what we witnessed in the 90's... what BB and crew have done is not perfect, but better than most teams at drafting/team building.

I remember tuning into an XFL game during their one misbegotten season and thinking "Boy there are a lot of ex-Patriots on the field." All Grier draft picks, of course.

I suspect that the confusion some honest and intelligent Posters are having regarding Grier's execrable Record here stems simply from not being around back when Bill I The Vile was around.

Consequently, Grier's promotion to Director of Player Personnel in 1995 may've given many the impression that he was running the Draft, thenceforward, and that 1995 and 1996 were "his" Drafts.

What is lost in translation, perhaps, is that Grier worked for Parcels...at least: at first.

It was clear back then that Grier reported to Parcels and not vice versa, much as current Director of Player Personnel Nick Caserio reports to Coach Bill II The Mad (Genius).

And that is precisely why Bill I The Traitor flew into such a Rage when he was unexpectedly overruled by the Owner on the Terry Glenn Pick: Because up until then he'd called all the Shots.

Glenn wasn't Grier's Pick any more than it was Parcels's.

Glenn was Kraft's Pick.

Before then, many contributed to the process, including Grier, but Parcels called the Shots.

Grier didn't start calling the Shots until 1997.

And my God, did he suck.

Wow.

I am shocked that there are some who think Notorious BIG was decent.

He was awful on every level.

Lets start with 1996. Tuna called the shots. Armey set up the draft board. Grier was the pro/contracts guy.

Bob kicked out Tuna because he was deviating from the draft board. in 1996 the board was already set ( keep in mind BB was on board as assistant HC and worked out players as well). We can debate if Sherry Glenn was a good pick or not. Probably was but Milloy (who BB worked out) Heath Irwin were already set as "value picks"

I personally hold him accountable for undercutting Pom Pom Petey. That was unacceptable. Krafty was still jock-sniffing so he didn't help.

I also hold him accountable for letting C-Mart go. Yes- Tuna gave him a poison pill but they should have gotten that deal done way before and not waste the money on Max Lane and Todd Rucci extension. Christ.

His FA acquisitions were also mostly bad. Zefross Moss? Terry Allen? They squeezed a year out of Henry Thomas. Thats it.

Robert Edwards was a good pick. His injury was unfortunate. T-Buck was ok- but as CB was a disaster.

According to BB, they liked Brady and he and Pioli sent **** Rehbein to work him out. BIG may/may not have been part of the process but sorry.......I will not give BIG credit for finding TB12. His track record does not support it.

In 2000 BB kept him around to help in the transition. After the draft he was sent packing.

"Success has many fathers, failure is an orphan."