OT: This year's HOF class semifinalists

ViperGTS said:

Do you even read? It's not about the Hall of Fame of which both Manning and Favre need to be in. It's whether they are first ballot. You realize Favre had 330 plus interceptions? That's terrible. I don't care about TDs. He had 140ish less INTs than TDs. That's NOT first ballot no matter what the media says.

It's about a lack of perspective. So your telling me that Favre and Manning deserve to be in the same breath as first ballot guys like Brady? If you do, then you are delusional. If you don't, then they shouldn't be. It's pretty easy.

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+1

It's like a comedy bit!

ViperGTS said:

If they are better QBs, then you've agreed with my theory. They are better therefore Favre and Manning don't get first ballot status. It's impossible to argue that even if they aren't as good they get the same treatment. Man this is such a simple thing to see, yet no one can.

I am truly mistified.

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I don't think you understand what 'theory' means.

JJDChE said:

+1

It's like a comedy bit!

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Is this all you can do? No refuting of the facts I bring up, just ridicule? Yeah, your a real smart one.

Done with you. Everytime a Favre fan would brag about the TD record, I would bring up the INT record and the conversation changed. Yeah that's not first ballot material.

What were your "facts"? That he has the INT record? FYI that's only one fact.

JJDChE said:

What were your "facts"? That he has the INT record? FYI that's only one fact.

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When you have the interception record that isn't chance. It's hurting your team with your "gunslinger" attitude. It's being careless and that's never a good thing. Here are some QB ratings.

Player 1. 96.6
Player 2. 86.0
Player 3. 92.3
Player 4. 94.0

2 of those are first ballot guys, one is possible and one..well....

ViperGTS said:

If they are better QBs, then you've agreed with my theory. They are better therefore Favre and Manning don't get first ballot status. It's impossible to argue that even if they aren't as good they get the same treatment. Man this is such a simple thing to see, yet no one can.

I am truly mistified.

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Brady and Montana are literally the two greatest QB's ever. Just because they're the greatest doesn't mean other quarterbacks can't be first ballot's also.

I feel like less of a football fan now. If someone had asked me 10 minutes ago if Craig was in the HoF I would have definitely said yes. How does a guy that did what he did not get in. I know the scatback/3rd down guys were sort of just coming into their own back then but damn he would run in between the tackles and knee a dude in the face...then turn around and catch a ball as well as a wide receiver. I don't recall anyone like that prior to him. Obviously now it's more common but IMO the guy changed the position. Now maybe someone a bit older than can recall a guy that did the same, but I cant.

Same with Atwater how is that dude not in? Crazy how hard it is to get in the hall for some positions and damn near impossible at others...kickers aside as that is whole other topic.

ViperGTS said:

When you have the interception record that isn't chance. It's hurting your team with your "gunslinger" attitude. It's being careless and that's never a good thing. Here are some QB ratings.

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5 of the top 10 on the all-time interception list are in the HoF, after Favre and Manning get in 7 of the top 10 on that list will be in the Hall. It's not nearly the negative you are making it out to be. You're simply inventing "facts" in order to validate your preconceived notion of where you think Favre and Manning rank compared to Brady.

The funny thing is it doesn't even matter where they rank compared to Brady. They can still be first ballot HoFers and be considered to be "ranked" behind Brady. The HoF isn't a ranking system. It's an acknowledgement of achievement in the NFL. First ballot is only an acknowledgment that a player had great achievements in the NFL. Favre and Manning absolutely personify what a first ballot player should be.

The other funny thing is that you say that they obviously should be there...well, that's exactly who should be first ballot. As a voter, why would you vote against someone who should "obviously" be there?

ViperGTS said:

Player 1. 96.6
Player 2. 86.0
Player 3. 92.3
Player 4. 94.0

2 of those are first ballot guys, one is possible and one..well....

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So, what do you think Phillip Rivers chances are of getting into the Hall of Fame?

Tuck said:

Law was never the same after the lisfranc injury in 2004. It's a shame because if he could have played at high level for just one or two more seasons he would have first ballot numbers.

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Can't say I totally agree with that. Played and started all 16 games the following 3 years. He led the league in picks with 10 the next year. Year after that he snared 6, 2 in the playoffs.

He was in decline after 2004 (when he turned 30), but still among the elite even though it wasn't in NE. Deion Sanders thinks he should be in and he's one of the few listenable commentators outside NE IMO (ironically tied with him on the all-time pick list with 53). I'll bet if someone asked Peyon Manning he would concur.

It's no secret Bill wanted him back during that 3 year span.

JJDChE said:

5 of the top 10 on the all-time interception list are in the HoF, after Favre and Manning get in 7 of the top 10 on that list will be in the Hall. It's not nearly the negative you are making it out to be. You're simply inventing "facts" in order to validate your preconceived notion of where you think Favre and Manning rank compared to Brady.

The funny thing is it doesn't even matter where they rank compared to Brady. They can still be first ballot HoFers and be considered to be "ranked" behind Brady. The HoF isn't a ranking system. It's an acknowledgement of achievement in the NFL. First ballot is only an acknowledgment that a player had great achievements in the NFL. Favre and Manning absolutely personify what a first ballot player should be.

The other funny thing is that you say that they obviously should be there...well, that's exactly who should be first ballot. As a voter, why would you vote against someone who should "obviously" be there?




So, what do you think Phillip Rivers chances are of getting into the Hall of Fame?

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No but that last rating? Big Ben. I think he's first ballot worthy, in this climate. I don't need to "invent" facts as you say. It's not my fault the voters (media) have moronic views of voting.

This started with Favre not being a first ballot guy. Now I'm wondering if him and Manning even belong at at all. Glorified media creations. Did you hear last night the windbag say Lambeau is the house Favre built? Disgusting.

The HoF bar at CB is really high. I wouldn't be surprised if Law misses out.

ViperGTS said:

No but that last rating? Big Ben. I think he's first ballot worthy, in this climate. I don't need to "invent" facts as you say. It's not my fault the voters (media) have moronic views of voting.

This started with Favre not being a first ballot guy. Now I'm wondering if him and Manning even belong at at all. Glorified media creations. Did you hear last night the windbag say Lambeau is the house Favre built? Disgusting.

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The media votes for the HoF inductees so I don't understand the point of criticizing their criteria when discussing who will be first ballot. That is a factor you have no control over.

Not to mention the fact that Manning and Favre are two of the best players in NFL history, they have all the hardware, Super Bowls, MVPs, Probowls, AllPros, records, etc. It doesn't really matter who is voting for the HoF, they would be first ballot no matter who got the choice. You couldn't find enough football fans in the entire country that would vote against Manning and Favre in their first year of eligibility.

You've chosen one 'fact' for each of those players where they did not perform perfectly (INTs for Favre and playoff record for Manning) and used those to discredit the massive mountain of positive achievements they made in their career. It's just a poor argument on your behalf. There's really no other way to put it. Just because you can come up with one or a couple negative points, that doesn't make it a good argument. It's like the people that say 2008 proves that Belichick made Brady because Cassel won 11 games. It's just not a good argument.

JJDChE said:

The media votes for the HoF inductees so I don't understand the point of criticizing their criteria when discussing who will be first ballot. That is a factor you have no control over.

Not to mention the fact that Manning and Favre are two of the best players in NFL history, they have all the hardware, Super Bowls, MVPs, Probowls, AllPros, records, etc. It doesn't really matter who is voting for the HoF, they would be first ballot no matter who got the choice. You couldn't find enough football fans in the entire country that would vote against Manning and Favre in their first year of eligibility.

You've chosen one 'fact' for each of those players where they did not perform perfectly (INTs for Favre and playoff record for Manning) and used those to discredit the massive mountain of positive achievements they made in their career. It's just a poor argument on your behalf. There's really no other way to put it. Just because you can come up with one or a couple negative points, that doesn't make it a good argument. It's like the people that say 2008 proves that Belichick made Brady because Cassel won 11 games. It's just not a good argument.

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Go to any Favre fan that's boasting about the TD record and yardage record. Bring up the INT record. Shuts them up. Start stammering Eric. It's huge and a huge indicator of doing just as much bad as good. I showed you his rating, no doubt low due to his INTs.

Most people are like cats. They just love shiny things. If you look past that you see the truth. QB passing record mean nothing to me. Playoff wins and how you performed when it was needed matters most. If you were even above average there, I'd look at the regular season stuff. Neither Favre nor Manning were even average. Hell, Favre is probably slightly ahead of Peyton in that regard. Tracy Porter stays hello.

The 2008 season proved that with a decent QB you can win 11 games in NE. What it also proved is without Brady, you can't have it when you need it the most.

So, your validation is arguing with poorly informed Green Bay fans? OK.

What's this 'truth' you're talking about? That he threw 172 more TDs than INTs? Wow, huge negative.

Of course, since you're relatively new to football you probably aren't taking into account that at the time Favre came into the NFL there wasn't nearly the emphasis on avoiding turnovers as there is now. It was nearly unheard of for a guy to throw over 25 TDs and under 10 INTs. Now the top guys do that every year. Favre's second year in the league Bledsoe went to the Pro Bowl with 25 TDs and 27 INTs, so did Warren Moon with 18 TDs and 19 INTs.

JJDChE said:

So, your validation is arguing with poorly informed Green Bay fans? OK.

What's this 'truth' you're talking about? That he threw 172 more TDs than INTs? Wow, huge negative.

Of course, since you're relatively new to football you probably aren't taking into account that at the time Favre came into the NFL there wasn't nearly the emphasis on avoiding turnovers as there is now. It was nearly unheard of for a guy to throw over 25 TDs and under 10 INTs. Now the top guys do that every year. Favre's second year in the league Bledsoe went to the Pro Bowl with 25 TDs and 27 INTs, so did Warren Moon with 18 TDs and 19 INTs.

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I never liked Bledseo because he threw picks left and right. I don't buy the idea that ball security didn't matter. I even remember Rodgers saying he was basically appalled at how careless Favre was with the football. He vowed to never be like that. That doesn't sound like HOF first ballot material to me. I doubt Jimmy G, Hoyer, Mallet, Cassell and others would ever utter that about TB.

Fact is, a 500ish to 330ish INTs is pretty bad. To me, the lack of ball security argument is tedious at best. Like I said when Bledsoe would throw a moronic pick, I'd groan. If I knew it was bad, he had to as well.

Judging by the standards of the HOF they should let in

Jon Lynch
Ty Law
Orlando Pace
Marvin Harrison
Kevin Green
Kurt Warner

I think the way the HOF is now those players deserve to go in this year.

If I had my way though it would be different. But the NFL wants to let in 5-6 people every year...

ViperGTS said:

I never liked Bledseo because he threw picks left and right. I don't buy the idea that ball security didn't matter. I even remember Rodgers saying he was basically appalled at how careless Favre was with the football. He vowed to never be like that. That doesn't sound like HOF first ballot material to me. I doubt Jimmy G, Hoyer, Mallet, Cassell and others would ever utter that about TB.

Fact is, a 500ish to 330ish INTs is pretty bad. To me, the lack of ball security argument is tedious at best. Like I said when Bledsoe would throw a moronic pick, I'd groan. If I knew it was bad, he had to as well.

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Of course I didn't say that ball security didn't matter, I said there was less emphasis. It's not even close to being the same thing. INT numbers have been steadily declining over the years, while TD numbers have trended up.

You need better historical context if you think 508-336 is a bad TD-INT ratio.

ViperGTS said:

I never liked Bledseo because he threw picks left and right. I don't buy the idea that ball security didn't matter. I even remember Rodgers saying he was basically appalled at how careless Favre was with the football. He vowed to never be like that. That doesn't sound like HOF first ballot material to me. I doubt Jimmy G, Hoyer, Mallet, Cassell and others would ever utter that about TB.

Fact is, a 500ish to 330ish INTs is pretty bad. To me, the lack of ball security argument is tedious at best. Like I said when Bledsoe would throw a moronic pick, I'd groan. If I knew it was bad, he had to as well.

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Favre finished with every record in the book when he retired. He was a 3x first team All Pro and an 11 time Pro Bowler. Throw in the fact that he's a 3x NFL MVP and has a SB Ring and you have a first ballot Hall of Famer. It doesn't matter if you feel he doesn't deserve it, it's gonna happen.

It is what it is.

ViperGTS said:

No but that last rating? Big Ben. I think he's first ballot worthy, in this climate. I don't need to "invent" facts as you say. It's not my fault the voters (media) have moronic views of voting.

This started with Favre not being a first ballot guy. Now I'm wondering if him and Manning even belong at at all. Glorified media creations. Did you hear last night the windbag say Lambeau is the house Favre built? Disgusting.

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Yeah, I was thinking WTF?

Lambeau field? Named after.... Ummm...Curly Lambeau.

ViperGTS said:

No but that last rating? Big Ben. I think he's first ballot worthy, in this climate. I don't need to "invent" facts as you say. It's not my fault the voters (media) have moronic views of voting.

This started with Favre not being a first ballot guy. Now I'm wondering if him and Manning even belong at at all. Glorified media creations. Did you hear last night the windbag say Lambeau is the house Favre built? Disgusting.

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You had me, then you lost me.