Losing Vereen/Lewis is the biggest conern, not Edelman

Mack Herron said:

White has 10 rushes for 34 yards (6 more than TB12) and 10 receptions for 90 yards (5 fewer than K. Martin) on the season. Expecting White to offer any substantial production requires a leap of faith at this point.

Click to expand...

We know White is no Dion Lewis but I would like to see him featured more so we can help the quick passing game. Scott Chandler should be phased out of the Offense period and use the one back set more. I think James White is similar to Shane Vereen can't run a dam but they give you the pass option that a Defense have to respect. It wouldn't surprise me if Joseph Fauria is added to the 53.

AndyJohnson said:

They kind of have done that at WR.


Which is why I said the OL must protect. If they do, Brady will shred anyone.
Throwing quick routes is a function of what the defense does. If they drop 8, then the routes will take longer, but as long as the OL doesn't suck, we will be shredding them further downfield.


No it doesn't. A PIECE of their scheme says that against certain coverages they will stress the quick throw, against others they will not.
Look at the WR screen play. Some weeks you think they are going to run it 20 times, others, like this week its non-existent (one late one to Lafell). That's because, like everything else, it is a big part of their scheme AGAINST a certain type of coverage.
If the OL played well, Monday would have looked just like week 2. Ryan did nothing different. The OL just didn't block as well.

Click to expand...

The Pats are purposefully built for the quick passing game. The NFL is about mismatches. Some teams spend huge dollars and draft capital getting guys who can blow the top of defenses. The Pats focus on value at that position which is where short, quick receivers come in. They're a lot cheaper than big, fast outside guys, and Brady is patient and surgical enough to pull it off. This both saves money and negates even a great pass rush. That doesn't mean the Pats won't throw deep if that's all the D is giving you, but they're not built for that.

Instead, the Pats are investing salary and draft capital more on defense to get bigger, faster guys that are more versatile and able to minimize mismatches. Sure they find value in some smaller guys in the secondary, but the Pats front seven is big, fast and talented enough to not lose the battle to mismatches near the LOS.

Mack Herron said:

With Lewis at home watching from his living room Sunday against the Bills White had 2 carries and 2 receptions. The previous week against the Giants he had 1 carry and 1 reception. If my math is right, that's 3 carries and 3 receptions in two games without Lewis. It is simply a fact that the coaches have seen better options than White even when Lewis is not around.

Click to expand...

Mack: I think in the case of James White last game showed that he deserves more touches.

Galeb said:

The Pats are purposefully built for the quick passing game. The NFL is about mismatches. Some teams spend huge dollars and draft capital getting guys who can blow the top of defenses. The Pats focus on value at that position which is where short, quick receivers come in. They're a lot cheaper than big, fast outside guys, and Brady is patient and surgical enough to pull it off. That doesn't mean the Pats won't throw deep if that's all the D is giving you, but they're not built for that.

Instead, the Pats are investing salary and draft capital more on defense to get bigger, faster guys that are more versatile and able to minimize mismatches. Sure they find value in some smaller guys in the secondary, but the Pats front seven is big, fast and talented enough to not lose the battle to mismatches near the LOS.

Click to expand...

They are built to take what the defense gives.
Edelman and Amendola are players that rely on quickness to get open in short spaces. Gronk is not. Lafell is not. Dobson is not.
They are built to exploit the entire football field.
If you think you can consistently get players open underneath without the threat of throwing down the field, I'm not sure this discussion will get us anywhere.
They happen to have a QB who will not make risky throws, so while the amount of passes they throw short, intermediate and deep are similar to almost every team in the NFL, they will tend to take the high percentage throw when it is there.

PatsFan2 said:

Mack: I think in the case of James White last game showed that he deserves more touches.

Click to expand...

I am certainly not anti-White, and I would love for you to be right, mainly because I think Blount is not the guy. But I am also aware that fans tend to translate potential into success when it really means he hasn't done anything yet. For the fans, White is in the category of unknown because we really haven't seen what he can do. But the coaches who watch him every day have not seen fit to give him many touches, even after they lost Lewis. Maybe it will all change on Sunday, but there is little reason to think so.

You crazy bruh

Mack Herron said:

White has 10 rushes for 34 yards (6 more than TB12) and 10 receptions for 90 yards (5 fewer than K. Martin) on the season. Expecting White to offer any substantial production requires a leap of faith at this point.

Click to expand...

Those numbers can be misleading if you didn't watch him last game.

AndyJohnson said:

They are built to take what the defense gives.
Edelman and Amendola are players that rely on quickness to get open in short spaces. Gronk is not. Lafell is not. Dobson is not.
They are built to exploit the entire football field.
If you think you can consistently get players open underneath without the threat of throwing down the field, I'm not sure this discussion will get us anywhere.
They happen to have a QB who will not make risky throws, so while the amount of passes they throw short, intermediate and deep are similar to almost every team in the NFL, they will tend to take the high percentage throw when it is there.

Click to expand...

The Pats certainly look for value that can stretch the field, but it's hard to find. In recent years, BB hasn't invested more than a 2nd rounder on field-stretching type of players and most of the veteran field stretchers brought in are reclamation projects.

Not only is Gronk effective in the short passing game, he is an excellent blocker. The Pats spent a 2nd on Gronk, and even "best of a generation" TEs are cheaper than tall, fast receivers.

Pats spent a second rounder on Dobson and he isn't making big money.

Lafell isn't a huge investment, and although he's a more of a mid-range range target, he's certainly not a "blow the top off the defense" kind of player.

Galeb said:

The Pats certainly look for value that can stretch the field, but it's hard to find. In recent years, BB hasn't invested more than a 2nd rounder on field-stretching type of players and most of the veteran field stretchers brought in are reclamation projects.

Click to expand...

They have invested even less in short route guys

Not only is Gronk effective in the short passing game, he is an excellent blocker. The Pats spent a 2nd on Gronk, and even "best of a generation" TEs are cheaper than tall, fast receivers.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what point you are making here.
I thought your argument was they built the offense around guys who get open quickly. That's not Gronk and Gronk is as much who it is built around as anyone.

Pats spent a second rounder on Dobson and he isn't making big money.

Click to expand...

I don't understand your point? You said they built the team on guys who get open quick, but they spent the highest picks they have used on offense on a LT, a down the field receiver and a TE.

Lafell isn't a huge investment, and although he's a more of a mid-range range target, he's certainly not a "blow the top off the defense" kind of player.

Click to expand...

He's their biggest FA WR acquisition in a long time. I don't know why you are trying to argue against my point with 'he is a blow the top off receiver' since I never have and never would use that term, and my argument is they are versatile and do everything depending on what the D leaves them.

Nothing in this post backs up your argument that they are a team built around short passes and cant do anything else.

AndyJohnson said:

They have invested even less in short route guys


I'm not sure what point you are making here.
I thought your argument was they built the offense around guys who get open quickly. That's not Gronk and Gronk is as much who it is built around as anyone.


I don't understand your point? You said they built the team on guys who get open quick, but they spent the highest picks they have used on offense on a LT, a down the field receiver and a TE.


He's their biggest FA WR acquisition in a long time. I don't know why you are trying to argue against my point with 'he is a blow the top off receiver' since I never have and never would use that term, and my argument is they are versatile and do everything depending on what the D leaves them.

Nothing in this post backs up your argument that they are a team built around short passes and cant do anything else.

Click to expand...

Relatively speaking, the Pats have invested a lot in short, quick receivers. The salaries or draft capital they demand is dramatically less than their tall, fast counterparts. The Pats offered Amendola (and Welker) top of the league money for a short, quick guys. Both were offered contracts of more than double the AAV that Lafell got. Lafell got a 3-year, $9 million deal, which is less money/year and less years than Edelman got.

Although Gronk is more of an intermediate threat, his size gets him open very quickly against shorter matchups, and as I already said, he is great value vs. tall, fast receivers. BB took a chance grabbing him in the second, but it has paid off big time.

The Pats have dedicated more money and high draft picks on defense compared to offense over the last several years. Nate Solder was drafted in 2011, the last time the Pats spent a 1st round pick on offense. The previous 1st rounder spent on offense was Maroney in 2006. Eight out of the last 10 1st round picks have been on defense. All that said, a good LT on a team with a right handed QB is a requirement for any scheme, so citing that investment of a 1st on Solder really doesn't help your argument. Solder is the only 1st round pick on the Pat's offense.

Never did I say the Pats couldn't do anything else but short passes. Their intermediate passing game is good, and something Edelman and Dola are decent at and Gronk and Lafell are good at. The Pats try to build their offense around the short passing game because it's high percentage plays, doesn't require great protection, runs on less expensive talent and can consistently beat the best defenses when run well. None of this means they won't try to find value at field stretchers, but they won't expend high draft capital or huge dollars on it. Nor does it mean they won't throw the ball intermediate or deep if that is what the other team is giving them. With less injuries and better OL play I'm sure they'd throw the ball deeper more often, but even when the OL isn't performing, the Pat's offense can still operate when they have enough quick guys healthy.

Revis was a MUCH bigger FA signing than Lafell was. Revis was considered a bargain while making more in one year than Lafell will make in 3.

James White has showed some nice open field moves while also having the ability to break tackles, which is great. But so far his reps have been limited as he has shared time with Bolden and the offense has incorporated more of the power running game. It appears that the coaching staff and Brady are being careful not to throw too much on his plate, but its also possible that James White hasn't proven that he can pick up the blitz. He has whiffed a couple times in pass protection and this might just be seen as a liability in his game. Hope he fixes that up and we get to see his snap count go up.

Mack Herron said:

With Lewis at home watching from his living room Sunday against the Bills White had 2 carries and 2 receptions. The previous week against the Giants he had 1 carry and 1 reception. If my math is right, that's 3 carries and 3 receptions in two games without Lewis. It is simply a fact that the coaches have seen better options than White even when Lewis is not around.

Click to expand...

Last year Shane Vereen averaged 3.3 catches per game for 28 yards

In the three games that Lewis has missed, James White is averaging 2 catches for 21 yards. Not a huge disparity.

It also should be pointed out that Vereen had 0 or 1 catches in 5 of his 16 games last year, so James only getting 1 catch against the Giants is not meaningful at all. It is actually proportional to Vereen's production in 2014.

I find the OP that prompted this thought to be off base. First, Amendola may be a fine Edelman replacement, but then who replaces Amendola? The drop off there must be accounted for in this analysis. I don't find the with/without Vereen numbers to be all that meaningful since the without phase occurred when the team was down Gronk and Amendola and the Shane's replacement was Brandon Bolden.

I think White will prove to be a perfectly adequate Vereen replacement as the year goes on.

its not about the drop off from jules to danny.

Its about the drop off from danny to uhh whoever is left alive.

jules was bradys top target, all those looks are now going to other places, and amendola can't catch 20 passes a game.

TheFlyingWedge said:

James White has showed some nice open field moves while also having the ability to break tackles

Click to expand...

Those two broken tackles were the first two he's made in two years as a Patriot. I couldn't have been happier to see that.

Oswlek said:

Last year Shane Vereen averaged 3.3 catches per game for 28 yards

In the three games that Lewis has missed, James White is averaging 2 catches for 21 yards. Not a huge disparity.

It also should be pointed out that Vereen had 0 or 1 catches in 5 of his 16 games last year, so James only getting 1 catch against the Giants is not meaningful at all. It is actually proportional to Vereen's production in 2014.

I find the OP that prompted this thought to be off base. First, Amendola may be a fine Edelman replacement, but then who replaces Amendola? The drop off there must be accounted for in this analysis. I don't find the with/without Vereen numbers to be all that meaningful since the without phase occurred when the team was down Gronk and Amendola and the Shane's replacement was Brandon Bolden.

I think White will prove to be a perfectly adequate Vereen replacement as the year goes on.

Click to expand...

Good post.

Vereens contributions are glorified.

The issue is that Lewis' playmaking left a gap that White has no chance of replacing.

robertweathers said:

Vereens contributions are glorified.

Click to expand...

To be fair, Shane was used as a runner more than James in the first half of the year, but from the bye week on, he only ran 3.3 times a game for a robust 3.1 ypc. So, even if White doesn't increase his production at all, you are talking about missing 10 yards rushing and 7 yards passing.

Said another way, if White just repeats this past week - with or without the TDs - you are getting pretty much the same thing Vereen provided for the last 10 games of 2014. (EDIT: Shane's receiving production over those 10 games climbed a bit from his full season numbers to 3.9 catches for 35 ypg)

PatsFan2 said:

Mack: I think in the case of James White last game showed that he deserves more touches.

Click to expand...

Averaging what already happened leads you nowhere. These players are humans, not test tubes. I've been as much a critic of Whites scaredy cat running as anyone, but that's not the player I saw Monday night.

The stats are

2 rushes, 7 yards a carry and a TD and that was a great, tough, TD.

2 receptions for 32 yards and another TD

TDs are what counts, not averages. If White is going to take the bit, Brady will ride him.

I also love how Blount is being such a cheerleader for White, as he was for Lewis. Confidence and positive feelings go a long way in this game.

If White runs like this, he's better than Vareen and he's a more nimble receiver than Lewis. Of course, he would need to keep it up!

Highlight: James White runs for a 6-yard TD

Losing Edelman is a HUGE concern

robertweathers said:

Good post.

Vereens contributions are glorified.

The issue is that Lewis' playmaking left a gap that White has no chance of replacing.

Click to expand...

White has the ability to be a fine runner/receiver. He simply needs to run hard like he did Monday.

Lewis ain't walking through that door [/Pitino] so why worry about him?

I would say the "old" James White would not have made either TD, which required a great job breaking a tackle and super hard running.

Let's encourage the new James White. he's got a great opportunity.