NFL Refs Association source on three blown calls

The problem isn't the officials being full-time or not, it's that there's human error involved and always will be. At a certain point, the officials are part of the rules of the game. There's no way to remove this sort of human error entirely, at least in the foreseeable future, so as long as there is football there will be people complaining about it.

Also, I definitely sympathize with the inadvertent whistle-blower.

"The official was line judge Gary Arthur, and it hasn’t been an easy season for him. In Week 1, Arthur was trampled by a Ravens player on a punt against the Broncos and suffered gruesome injuries: nine broken ribs, a broken collarbone, and a partially collapsed lung.

Monday night’s game was Arthur’s second game back, and our source believes Arthur blew the whistle because he became skittish once Brady and the action of the play rolled his way, toward the sideline."

I can understand that.

Again, specifically, what do the full-time refs advocates think full-time refs will be doing differently than the current refs and how/why will those differences make the officiating better?

It's not like the current refs wake up on a Sunday morning after doing nothing ref-related since the previous Sunday. Read King's piece a year or so ago on Steratore's crew, the ESPN article on Hochuli that DI linked to a few posts ago, etc.

Deus Irae said:

I'm saying that you're out of your mind to argue that full time officials are the answer for the fast paced game of football when full time officials are demonstrably not the answer for the fast paced game of basketball, and that trying to use complexity as the reason undercuts your own argument, given how bad the NBA officials are.

Click to expand...

What would be the benefit of full time officials? Does an official need to be full time to know not to blow the whistle for no reason at all? NO REASON AT ALL. Would it help them to know Watkins went out of bounds to stop the clock? They had replay and 5 other officials and people in NY, that didn't help, and everyone watching said he was out of bounds and knew the clock should have been stopped. They do stupid stuff every week and being full time isn't going to help unless you think sitting around the table repeating, don't blow the whistle for no reason will help. The NFL is too hung up trying to police everything to the nth degree.

... And the NFL has now admitted what many of us have been saying...

The Watkins play should have resulted in a clock stoppage:

“He is down in bounds, but he’s not contacted,” Blandino said as he showed video of the play. “He’s attempting to get out of bounds, you want to give that player the opportunity to get out of bounds, and really, that’s what should have happened.”

Click to expand...

NFL admits Sammy Watkins got out of bounds with two seconds left

Officials have a ton of pressure on them to appear objective, to not screw up, and to keep up with play that's very fast while dodging men who are three times their size and looking to do violence. All this in front of 50,000 fans in the stadium and hundreds of thousands or millions at home. They don't get compensated that well for the job. It's not easy. But they're a necessary part of the game, and you can't change that without changing football entirely.

They're going to make mistakes. You just hope it doesn't cost your team too much.

I like the way the Patriots, coach, QB, owner etc. handled the situation. Better than I could have. Kudos.

Deus Irae said:

I'm saying that you're out of your mind to argue that full time officials are the answer for the fast paced game of football when full time officials are demonstrably not the answer for the fast paced game of basketball, and that trying to use complexity as the reason undercuts your own argument, given how bad the NBA officials are.

Click to expand...

I find it incredulous to say someone is out of their mind when suggesting a remedy for referees making incorrect calls because they do not know the rules is to hire full time refs, who would therefore spend 30 hours a week training.

primetime said:

The problem isn't the officials being full-time or not, it's that there's human error involved and always will be. At a certain point, the officials are part of the rules of the game. There's no way to remove this sort of human error entirely, at least in the foreseeable future, so as long as there is football there will be people complaining about it.

Also, I definitely sympathize with the inadvertent whistle-blower.

"The official was line judge Gary Arthur, and it hasn’t been an easy season for him. In Week 1, Arthur was trampled by a Ravens player on a punt against the Broncos and suffered gruesome injuries: nine broken ribs, a broken collarbone, and a partially collapsed lung.

Monday night’s game was Arthur’s second game back, and our source believes Arthur blew the whistle because he became skittish once Brady and the action of the play rolled his way, toward the sideline."

I can understand that.

Click to expand...

It didn't help that Rex blocked his line of sight.

Deus Irae said:

No, I'm assuming nothing. I'm pointing out that the notion that making the officials full time will solve the problems is absurd. Some of the NFL officials are already full time, yet clearly people here feel that the officiating isn't any better as a result.

Here's Hochuli describing a typical week:

ESPN.com: NFL - Refereeing can often be full-time job

Click to expand...

Agreed but what you are saying is that full-time NBA refs suck (which I agree with) and that making NFL refs full-time will not solve the problem (which as a stand-alone, I also agree with).

In my original post, I did say that the officiating would improve by making refs full-time AND provide them with the tools to make correct calls. This includes making every play review-able.

The article you've attached is a great one. My next question is how many refs are as committed as Hochuli from a time investment standpoint? What performance grades has he received the last few years? What have others received?

My perception is that the NFL is adverse to more replay ( I understand the potential reasons) and adverse to holding refs accountable for making crappy calls- and not just saying "we goofed" in the press.

robertweathers said:

My perception is that the NFL is adverse to more replay ( I understand the potential reasons) and adverse to holding refs accountable for making crappy calls- and not just saying "we goofed" in the press.

Click to expand...

If you hold refs too accountable, you no longer have any refs. They also have a union to deal with (and the union exists for exactly this reason), it's not as cut-and-dry as you're making it out to be.

I really don't care whether or not the NFL makes their refs go full-time, but it is foolish to believe that doing so will result in any noticeable improvement in the officiating.

primetime said:

If you hold refs too accountable, you no longer have any refs. They also have a union to deal with (and the union exists for exactly this reason), it's not as cut-and-dry as you're making it out to be.

Click to expand...

I get that part. If both sides are competent and responsible, great job performance and agreed-to standards are in both party's long term best interest.

With that said, if the suspicion is that the union has negotiated a lower bar of performance than the NFL is calling for, then the problem runs much deeper than what we are discussing.

What might come of this is with every play review able for correctness and consistency, the official's job might become easier.

With that said, I'm not asking for perfection. I'm asking for improvement.

robertweathers said:

Agreed but what you are saying is that full-time NBA refs suck (which I agree with) and that making NFL refs full-time will not solve the problem (which as a stand-alone, I also agree with).

In my original post, I did say that the officiating would improve by making refs full-time AND provide them with the tools to make correct calls. This includes making every play review-able.

The article you've attached is a great one. My next question is how many refs are as committed as Hochuli from a time investment standpoint? What performance grades has he received the last few years? What have others received?

My perception is that the NFL is adverse to more replay ( I understand the potential reasons) and adverse to holding refs accountable for making crappy calls- and not just saying "we goofed" in the press.

Click to expand...

They fired incompetent officials.

NFL has fired some of its worst officials

Exactly how much more accountable do you think they should hold them? Nuthooks? Iron Maidens? What?

robertweathers said:

I get that part. If both sides are competent and responsible, great job performance and agreed-to standards are in both party's long term best interest.

With that said, if the suspicion is that the union has negotiated a lower bar of performance than the NFL is calling for, then the problem runs much deeper than what we are discussing.

What might come of this is with every play review able for correctness and consistency, the official's job might become easier.

With that said, I'm not asking for perfection. I'm asking for improvement.

Click to expand...

The union got locked out and whatever concessions it received came because the scab refs were a total farce. Whatever they got is what they got. Last I looked, we still have legislation that protects workers' rights to bargain collectively in the workplace.

Deus Irae said:

They fired incompetent officials.

NFL has fired some of its worst officials

Exactly how much more accountable do you think they should hold them? Nuthooks? Iron Maidens? What?

Click to expand...

Was reading this earlier.

I can't answer your question- yet.

What is the minimum bar of acceptable performance? Does a D+ allow you to stay employed? Is that policy allowing the league to attain the desired results?

We can assume that the refs were fired for making bad calls consistently. Did the bad refs flunk tests? Did they do well on the tests and were unable to transfer their knowledge to the field? Beyond bad calls, what led to their firing? What did the not do to be successful?

I also question Blandino's metrics that he uses to determine that officiating has improved. Really? Based on what I've seen thus far the officiating is the worst I can remember. I question the job he is doing and the methodology and standards he is supposedly enforcing and his policies and procedures.

These guys can't even keep track of ball pressure measurements. With that, I question the overall level of competency with NFL officiating and their leadership.


NFL has fired some of its worst officials

primetime said:

The union got locked out and whatever concessions it received came because the scab refs were a total farce. Whatever they got is what they got. Last I looked, we still have legislation that protects workers' rights to bargain collectively in the workplace.

Click to expand...

Are you saying that unions do not have the responsibility to ensure that their member's job performance does not necessarily need to be in alignment with quality standards?

robertweathers said:

Are you saying that unions do not have the responsibility to ensure that their member's job performance does not necessarily need to be in alignment with quality standards?

Click to expand...

They only have a responsibility to uphold whatever's in the collective bargaining agreement - a contract, not some abstract notion of "quality standards."

robertweathers said:

Are you saying that unions do not have the responsibility to ensure that their member's job performance does not necessarily need to be in alignment with quality standards?

Click to expand...

A Unions job is to protect their members and make sure the CBA is followed properly. Not matter what the violation and performance is, they must represent the member(s) to the best care when going against the employer.

Deus Irae said:

... And the NFL has now admitted what many of us have been saying...
The Watkins play should have resulted in a clock stoppage:
NFL admits Sammy Watkins got out of bounds with two seconds left

Click to expand...

And it was because an NFL official was using college rules to make the call...which was then supported by the rest of the crew (any of whom could have challenged it in conference right then and had it reversed) and by the Buffalo coaching staff, who walked off the field without pushing back on the ruling, even though it was explained to them (they don't know the rules?!).

betterthanthealternative said:

And it was because an NFL official was using college rules to make the call...which was then supported by the rest of the crew (any of whom could have challenged it in conference right then and had it reversed) and by the Buffalo coaching staff, who walked off the field without pushing back on the ruling, even though it was explained to them (they don't know the rules?!).

Click to expand...

If I was a Buffalo fan I would be more pissed my coaching staff didn't do a damn thing to fight or question the ruling.