Gronk/Edelman vs. Moss/Welker

glm · Nov 6, 2015

AzorianPats said:
What video evidence do you need? You think someone making a YouTube video of Moss's failures? If there was sure youd find it since you live off YT and gifs.

The point is that there is no evidence that Moss doesn't go over the middle because it's not true.

The first Pats highlight on that 10 minute clip was the only time i remember him going over the middle in coming traffic.

Good thing we're not judging players off of people's memory.

You know damn well if it was a vertical route, Moss wasnt having it.

Wait... what now?

Not sure you worded this right.

Bruins29 · Nov 6, 2015

Think about how silly this is. If Samuel makes that catch or Tyree dosnt make a one in a million catch.

Or if we arent stuck with an offense of WW, Gronk and AH in 2011. With Ocho useless, Branch 44 years old and Edeleman not being able to contribute.

Or if Pete Carrol decides to run...or if Butler dosent make the greatest play in SB history.

I mean really?

glm · Nov 6, 2015

Bruins29 said:
Guys, come on. This is all unnecessary. They were all great players and all very different players being used differently in different offenses and also in different points of their careers.

Forgive me, lol Moss is my favorite receiver, I can argue for hours about him. Same goes for, LeGarrette, Brady, Gronk, BB etc.

glm · Nov 6, 2015

Bruins29 said:
Think about how silly this is. If Samuel makes that catch or Tyree dosnt make a one in a million catch.

Or if we arent stuck with an offense of WW, Gronk and AH in 2011. With Ocho useless, Branch 44 years old and Edeleman not being able to contribute.

Or if Pete Carrol decides to run...or if Butler dosent make the greatest play in SB history.

I mean really?

I agree. This is exactly why I said it's ridiculous to judge pass catchers by SB wins. Too many factors to take into account that don't even reflect the pass catcher's skill level.

Bruins29 · Nov 6, 2015

glm said:
Forgive me, lol Moss is my favorite receiver, I can argue for hours about him. Same goes for, LeGarrette, Brady, Gronk, BB etc.

Of course. Would have been nice if he gave us more years.

Look ,its all done. This new team is gonna hopfully win a few more.

Does it really matter who was better than who when the only way to really determine that would be to take the players and put them in the same offenses with the same supporting cast? And then who cares.

Stanley Morgan was better than Brandon Lafell. Great! Jamie Collins is Better than Andre Tippet. Great. Mayne he is not. Great!

Lets have a dissertation on it. How about just enjoying the game and not worrying about this.

And the D won and lost all the superbowls anyway.

glm · Nov 6, 2015

Bruins29 said:
Of course. Would have been nice if he gave us more years.

Look ,its all done. This new team is gonna hopfully win a few more.

Does it really matter who was better than who when the only way to really determine that would be to take the players and put them in the same offenses with the same supporting cast? And then who cares.

Stanley Morgan was better than Brandon Lafell. Great! Jamie Collons is Better than Andre Tippet. Great. Mayne he is not. Great!

Lets have a dissertation on it. How about just enjoying the game and not worrying about this.

And the D won and lost all the superbowls anyway.

I wasn't arguing who was better, I was arguing about inaccurate statements about Randy. On the actual topic question I said I couldn't decide. I'd take Randy ever so slightly ahead of Gronk and I'll take Jules over Wes.

Edit: And here's to hoping the Pats win every SB for the next decade

AzorianPats · Nov 6, 2015

glm said:
The point is that there is no evidence that Moss doesn't go over the middle because it's not true.

Good thing we're not judging players off of people's memory.

Wait... what now?

Not sure you worded this right.

I meant if it wasn't* a vertical

Listen. Moss was great. Loved him here. Was amped when we traded for him, and to this day still love the guy. Loved seeing him and Brady interact in West Virginia this past training camp.

With that, he had his faults. He would give up on plays. And he wouldnt go up the middle with an LB waiting for him. There were enough reports of him dogging it throughout his career, and yes when there's smoke theres usually fire.

With that, hes arguably the second greatest WR of all time, and the most talented to put on a Patriots jersey.

I got love for Moss, i wished he stuck around in 2010, cuz he would have been a great weapon with both of those rookie TE's. And considering how old he was, and him taking a year off i thought he did great in SF, and I wanted him to get that SB.

No hate honestly. And that goes for Welker too, I just so happen to like Edelman more.

chasa · Nov 6, 2015

glm said:
Refer to:

Herp derp. Boy, sit down.

The way you are going after everyone says otherwise. although this goes against your opinion, so i'm wrong again

Interception · Nov 6, 2015

strngplyr said:
That's irrelevant because they weren't on that team. They're on this one. This offense is harder to defend and I prefer them.

This is about players, not the teams. This is not 2007 patriots vs 2015 patriots. It's JE11 and Gronk vs Welker and Moss. So to accurately compare them, you have to compare them with all other variable being the same. This is simple. To do a study like this, you need to have all variables the same. Have you ever taken any intro science class? It's not hard to understand.

rochrist · Nov 6, 2015

Interception said:
This is about players, not the teams. This is not 2007 patriots vs 2015 patriots. It's JE11 and Gronk vs Welker and Moss. So to accurately compare them, you have to compare them with all other variable being the same. This is simple. To do a study like this, you need to have all variables the same. Have you ever taken any intro science class? It's not hard to understand.

It's not hard to understand that arguing about football players isn't science.

Ring 6 · Nov 6, 2015

Interception said:
This is about players, not the teams. This is not 2007 patriots vs 2015 patriots. It's JE11 and Gronk vs Welker and Moss. So to accurately compare them, you have to compare them with all other variable being the same. This is simple. To do a study like this, you need to have all variables the same. Have you ever taken any intro science class? It's not hard to understand.

The problem is you make assumptions that you believe everyone must accept

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Ring 6 · Nov 6, 2015

It's different. Moss catching bombs was cool. Being virtually unbeatable with Gronk is cooler.

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Oswlek · Nov 6, 2015

rochrist said:
It's not hard to understand that arguing about football players isn't science.

Exactly. In fact, choosing between Moss/Welker and Gronk/Edelman actually necessitates the rosters be built differently around them. Otherwise you aren't talking about their abilities but their fit to a particular team.

ivanvamp · Nov 7, 2015

The greatness of Moss vs. Gronk can be debated, with points made on either side. There's never been a better deep threat than Moss in his prime. Perhaps no more gifted a WR in the history of the game. But WR and TE are very different positions, and so let's take their respective best seasons and compare it to the next best player at that same position.

And as a second exercise, assume Moss is the best receiver, and thus should be the highest-paid receiver. We will take him at the highest NFL WR salary today and do the same with Gronk (relative to TE), and then with those salary restraints, build a WR/TE combo for the same dollar amount.

Ok, first exercise.
Moss (2007): 98 rec, 1493 yds, 15.2 avg, 23 td, 20 AV (by pro-football-reference.com)
Braylon Edwards: 80 rec, 1289 yds, 16.1 avg, 16 td, 13 AV

Gronk (2011): 90 rec, 1327 yds, 14.7 avg, 17 td, 14 AV
Graham: 99 rec, 1310 yds, 13.2 avg, 11 td, 13 AV

The difference between the #1 WR in 2007 (Moss) and the #2 WR in 2007 (incredibly, Edwards) is a little bit bigger than the difference between the #1 TE in 2011 (Gronk) and the #2 TE in 2011 (Graham).

Second exercise. Top WR salary = $16.2 m (average). Average WR salary = $2.3 m (average)
Moss (2007): 98 rec, 1493 yds, 15.2 avg, 23 td, 20 AV ($16.2 m)
Guys in the $2.8 m range: Beckham ($2.6), DeVante Parker ($2.7), Jacoby Jones ($2.7), LaFell ($3.0)

Top TE salary = $10.0 m (average). Average TE salary = $1.8 m (average)
Gronk (2011): 90 rec, 1327 yds, 14.7 avg, 17 td, 14 AV ($10.0 m)
Guys in the $1.8 m range: Ben Watson ($1.6), Rob Housler ($1.7), Jim Dray ($1.9), Cumberland ($1.9)

So if you had a budget of, say, $19 million, you could either have:

WR Moss, and TE Housler
or
WR Nelson (or Marshall or Antonio Brown), and TE Gronk

I think I'd rather have Brown at WR and Gronk at TE, over Moss at WR and Housler at TE, for roughly the same amount of money.

*Salary figures from: overthecap.com

Petersen23 · Nov 7, 2015

Tough one, going with Gronk/ Edelmania cuz they got the hardware
But all I gotta say is:
"Straight cash, homie"

Interception · Nov 7, 2015

rochrist said:
It's not hard to understand that arguing about football players isn't science.

The same method applies to this. It doesn't have to be science, comparing players is inaccurate if all variables are not the same. It's very simple to understand. The fact that you can't wrap your head around that shows your level of intelligence.

If we lost Gronk, Edelman and Lafell to injuries this week, would Brady perform as well? If we lost Brady, would Gronk perform as well? Are these not important factors?
If they are, then how can you compare Gronk and Moss without considering the people around them? You're picking favorites.

Interception · Nov 7, 2015

ivanvamp said:
The greatness of Moss vs. Gronk can be debated, with points made on either side. There's never been a better deep threat than Moss in his prime. Perhaps no more gifted a WR in the history of the game. But WR and TE are very different positions, and so let's take their respective best seasons and compare it to the next best player at that same position.

And as a second exercise, assume Moss is the best receiver, and thus should be the highest-paid receiver. We will take him at the highest NFL WR salary today and do the same with Gronk (relative to TE), and then with those salary restraints, build a WR/TE combo for the same dollar amount.

Ok, first exercise.
Moss (2007): 98 rec, 1493 yds, 15.2 avg, 23 td, 20 AV (by pro-football-reference.com)
Braylon Edwards: 80 rec, 1289 yds, 16.1 avg, 16 td, 13 AV

Gronk (2011): 90 rec, 1327 yds, 14.7 avg, 17 td, 14 AV
Graham: 99 rec, 1310 yds, 13.2 avg, 11 td, 13 AV

The difference between the #1 WR in 2007 (Moss) and the #2 WR in 2007 (incredibly, Edwards) is a little bit bigger than the difference between the #1 TE in 2011 (Gronk) and the #2 TE in 2011 (Graham).

Second exercise. Top WR salary = $16.2 m (average). Average WR salary = $2.3 m (average)
Moss (2007): 98 rec, 1493 yds, 15.2 avg, 23 td, 20 AV ($16.2 m)
Guys in the $2.8 m range: Beckham ($2.6), DeVante Parker ($2.7), Jacoby Jones ($2.7), LaFell ($3.0)

Top TE salary = $10.0 m (average). Average TE salary = $1.8 m (average)
Gronk (2011): 90 rec, 1327 yds, 14.7 avg, 17 td, 14 AV ($10.0 m)
Guys in the $1.8 m range: Ben Watson ($1.6), Rob Housler ($1.7), Jim Dray ($1.9), Cumberland ($1.9)

So if you had a budget of, say, $19 million, you could either have:

WR Moss, and TE Housler
or
WR Nelson (or Marshall or Antonio Brown), and TE Gronk

I think I'd rather have Brown at WR and Gronk at TE, over Moss at WR and Housler at TE, for roughly the same amount of money.

*Salary figures from: overthecap.com

Sounds great, but the $19 million number was pulled out of no where and Moss was not paid that much. Why make up salaries for them instead of using their actual salaries from 07 and 15? Take them for what they were paid in real life, not what you think they're worth. If you want to do that, why not make up salaries for what Nelson and Brown are actually worth instead of their real salaries?

You can't just assign Moss and Gronk what you think they're worth but not do the same for Brown and Nelson. Very flawed. Either use real salaries for all of them or make up salaries for all of them. Don't pick and choose.

Interception · Nov 7, 2015

AndyJohnson said:
The problem is you make assumptions that you believe everyone must accept

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These are not assumptions. You cannot evaluate an individual without looking at the team. It is a TEAM sport. Everyone is quick to point out how manning had better receivers than Brady throughout his career, so why not point out Gronk has more help than moss did? Not an assumption, that is a fact. Edelman, Lafell, Lewis, Amendola, Blount... Moss never had help like that. Denying that is just blindness.
You really think Moss wouldn't have done better with that cast?

Comparing players without including every variable that affected their performance is inaccurate and biased. Please explain how that is an assumption.

Interception · Nov 7, 2015

The real question:

Gronk/Edelman/Lafell/Lewis/Blount/Amendola
vs
Moss/Welker/Lafell/Lewis/Blount/Amendola

Can't compare the first two on each without having the same variables for the rest of the team. IMO the moss/Welker team would do much better and probably go 19-0. Moss would get pretty close to 30 TDs. You can't double him deep and still cover the other FIVE players all game.

FWIW, many people have said Brady views the 07 team as the best team in NFL history. That's been mentioned since people have been comparing this team to the 07 team. I don't think this '15 team is anywhere close to what Moss did in 07. Easy to forget his dominance that year, apparently. I bet if Gronk had been on that team and Moss was on this team, everyone's opinions would be opposite.

rochrist · Nov 7, 2015

Interception said:
The same method applies to this. It doesn't have to be science, comparing players is inaccurate if all variables are not the same. It's very simple to understand. The fact that you can't wrap your head around that shows your level of intelligence.

If we lost Gronk, Edelman and Lafell to injuries this week, would Brady perform as well? If we lost Brady, would Gronk perform as well? Are these not important factors?
If they are, then how can you compare Gronk and Moss without considering the people around them? You're picking favorites.

You're pushing a ridiculous theory. Yes, if Brady lost every offensive skill position player, his performance would likely be effected. That doesn't change anything about the argument. If you're entire premise is that Gronk and JE suck because Gaffney and Stallworth we're chopped liver, you might want to consider that between them, they had 82 catches and 8 TDs. When your top two receivers are pulling down 210 balls, it somewhat limits the numbers for the other guys. That said, the top two after Gronk and JE last year had 101 catches and 8 TDs. Not a real big difference, just a little bit more balanced offense.

Gronk/Edelman vs. Moss/Welker

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Moss/Welker

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