Will this defense be top ten? (hint: no)

robertweathers said:

Not allowing a 2nd 1/2 TD in the last 6 games is as good as it gets but no question that they were not a dominant defense.

As you said 2014 D was good enough. I think the 2015 D is good enough too.

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I think this stat, while a good one, is a bit overhyped. The defense was still giving up points, it just happened to be in the 1st half. And in the playoffs, the defense put the team in jeopardy of being one and done with its atrocious play in the Baltimore game. Overcoming two 14 point deficits in a playoff game is something that has never been done before. The defense would have easily lost us that game if it wasn't for our incredible offense.

BTW, that stat does not apply to the postseason, as we gave up 2nd half TDs to Seattle and Baltimore.

The best thing we can say about the defense last year is that it was clutch. I see no reason for that to change in 2015 as the players who were most instrumental in those big plays are still on the team.

The Brandon Five said:

Yeah, I would like to see the combine stats for Refrigerator Perry side-by-side with, say, Vince Wilfork's.
Or Mike Singletary's compared to Jamie Collins.

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For all the glam that surrounded him, Fridge was a damn good player. I think VW was a tier above though.

I'd compare Singletary to more to Mayo. Singletary was so fast.

I think Collins blows Singletary away.

FourierSeries said:

I think this stat, while a good one, is a bit overhyped. The defense was still giving up points, it just happened to be in the 1st half. And in the playoffs, the defense put the team in jeopardy of being one and done with its atrocious play in the Baltimore game. Overcoming two 14 point deficits in a playoff game is something that has never been done before. The defense would have easily lost us that game if it wasn't for our incredible offense.

BTW, that stat does not apply to the postseason, as we gave up 2nd half TDs to Seattle and Baltimore.

The best thing we can say about the defense last year is that it was clutch. I see no reason for that to change in 2015 as the players who were most instrumental in those big plays are still on the team.

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You are selling last year's D well short. They had a tough time in the Baltimore game and they were late in putting Browner on Chris Matthews in the Super Bowl. Outside of that, the defense was stellar from week 5 on. Note that in that span they played the #1, #2, #6 (twice), #8 (twice) and #10 scoring offenses in the league and still only gave up 19 ppg over that span (the historically great Seahawks D allowed 15.6 for the year).

letekro said:

You are selling last year's D well short. They had a tough time in the Baltimore game and they were late in putting Browner on Chris Matthews in the Super Bowl. Outside of that, the defense was stellar from week 5 on. Note that in that span they played the #1, #2, #6 (twice), #8 (twice) and #10 scoring offenses in the league and still only gave up 19 ppg over that span (the historically great Seahawks D allowed 15.6 for the year).

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I'm not selling them short at all. I've said plenty of times that they were a good unit. They just weren't elite.

Their best attribute was still the fact that they were clutch. They made plays when it counted.

However, the fact remains that they put us in an awful position vs Baltimore, and in any other season (based on historical data) that would have resulted in a one and done.

Again, they were good for the most part. But not elite. That's how I view the current defense as well.

FourierSeries said:

I'm not selling them short at all. I've said plenty of times that they were a good unit. They just weren't elite.

Their best attribute was still the fact that they were clutch. They made plays when it counted.

However, the fact remains that they put us in an awful position vs Baltimore, and in any other season (based on historical data) that would have resulted in a one and done.

Again, they were good for the most part. But not elite. That's how I view the current defense as well.

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"Clutch" is BS. Why chalk it up to some vague intangible and not to the obvious, tangible thing right in front of you? They made plays when they counted BECAUSE they were elite, BECAUSE they had the ability to shut down anybody, with any personnel, at the critical moment. Why harp on the Baltimore game? Seattle got shredded by Brady in the Super Bowl. Does that take away from their greatness?

letekro said:

"Clutch" is BS. Why chalk it up to some vague intangible and not to the obvious, tangible thing right in front of you? They made plays when they counted BECAUSE they were elite, BECAUSE they had the ability to shut down anybody, with any personnel, at the critical moment. Why harp on the Baltimore game? Seattle got shredded by Brady in the Super Bowl. Does that take away from their greatness?

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I consider Eli to be clutch, but not elite. Clutch has a very clear definition. Nothing vague about it. It's not "obvious and tangible" that the defense was elite. No statistical analysis, basic or advanced, will come to that conclusion.

As a Pat fan, I have trouble comprehending how anyone can view last year's defense as elite after watching the 2003 and 2004 seasons. Not only were those defenses vastly superior as evaluated by the eye test, but they were also statistically better in relation to the rest of the league. Even by today's standards, the 2014 defense wasn't elite by any means.

Seattle had the misfortune of going up against an excellent offense quarterbacked by the greatest QB of all time. That's why they got shredded.

betterthanthealternative said:

I've been thinking that the Cowboy focus on Weeden as their problem is a mistake. It lets the other players off the hook. He's been servicable. The coaching staff needs to look the players in the eye and tell them that they need to win the game with him at QB. Just get it done.

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Weeden's been lousy. It's about the things beyond the stats, like him choosing the wrong receiver to throw to because he's afraid to make the deeper throw. That's why he got benched.

FourierSeries said:

I think this stat, while a good one, is a bit overhyped. The defense was still giving up points, it just happened to be in the 1st half. And in the playoffs, the defense put the team in jeopardy of being one and done with its atrocious play in the Baltimore game. Overcoming two 14 point deficits in a playoff game is something that has never been done before. The defense would have easily lost us that game if it wasn't for our incredible offense.

BTW, that stat does not apply to the postseason, as we gave up 2nd half TDs to Seattle and Baltimore.

The best thing we can say about the defense last year is that it was clutch. I see no reason for that to change in 2015 as the players who were most instrumental in those big plays are still on the team.

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You keep making this argument then keep having to leave thread after thread when it gets pounded into the ground. The defense had to make key stops in the Baltimore game in order to allow the offense to get back in the game. The offense also shot itself in the foot with a very untimely turnover at the end of the first half which allowed a score.

FourierSeries said:

I think this stat, while a good one, is a bit overhyped. The defense was still giving up points, it just happened to be in the 1st half. And in the playoffs, the defense put the team in jeopardy of being one and done with its atrocious play in the Baltimore game. Overcoming two 14 point deficits in a playoff game is something that has never been done before. The defense would have easily lost us that game if it wasn't for our incredible offense.

BTW, that stat does not apply to the postseason, as we gave up 2nd half TDs to Seattle and Baltimore.

The best thing we can say about the defense last year is that it was clutch. I see no reason for that to change in 2015 as the players who were most instrumental in those big plays are still on the team.

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I hear you. Not sure I'd say that they were overhyped- at least not by me. Every defense had good days and bad days. I think BAL was just a sucky matchup for NE...always have been. As you say vs SEA they saved the team's bacon by coming up with big stops in the 4th qtr to give the O the chance. Same goes for the BAL game - they made the stops when the had to which is the mark of a pretty good defense.

With it all said since the 1st game vs Jets last year the almost always did it's job except for a few plays here and there. If we got the same performance this year (except the BAL game!) I'd be pretty pleased.

letekro said:

"Clutch" is BS. Why chalk it up to some vague intangible and not to the obvious, tangible thing right in front of you? They made plays when they counted BECAUSE they were elite, BECAUSE they had the ability to shut down anybody, with any personnel, at the critical moment. Why harp on the Baltimore game? Seattle got shredded by Brady in the Super Bowl. Does that take away from their greatness?

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They weren't a statistically elite defense, so by what standard are they elite?

KontradictioN said:

You keep making this argument then keep having to leave thread after thread when it gets pounded into the ground. The defense had to make key stops in the Baltimore game in order to allow the offense to get back in the game. The offense also shot itself in the foot with a very untimely turnover at the end of the first half which allowed a score.

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Perhaps it would help if you comprehended what was being said.

I've outlined numerous times in this thread how the defense came up with "key stops." "Clutch" is a word I've used to describe last year's defense on multiple occasions. They came up with stops or takeaways when the game was on the line.

That has nothing to do with my argument. My argument is simply that it was not an elite defense. An elite defense is one that dominates and suffocates an opposing offense for the full 60 minutes. If you would like to make the argument that the 2014 defense was elite, go right ahead. It will be a cakewalk to completely demolish such a silly claim. There is not a single unbiased observer who would look at last year's defense as elite. You could perform statistical analyses utilizing various models and methodologies, and exactly none of them would support that premise. Even the raw stats don't point to it being elite.

FourierSeries said:

Perhaps it would help if you comprehended what was being said.

I've outlined numerous times in this thread how the defense came up with "key stops." "Clutch" is a word I've used to describe last year's defense on multiple occasions. They came up with stops or takeaways when the game was on the line.

That has nothing to do with my argument. My argument is simply that it was not an elite defense. An elite defense is one that dominates and suffocates an opposing offense for the full 60 minutes. If you would like to make the argument that the 2014 defense was elite, go right ahead. It will be a cakewalk to completely demolish such a silly claim. There is not a single unbiased observer who would look at last year's defense as elite. You could perform statistical analyses utilizing various models and methodologies, and exactly none of them would support that premise.

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Those goal posts are certainly moving now.

FourierSeries said:

I think this stat, while a good one, is a bit overhyped. The defense was still giving up points, it just happened to be in the 1st half. And in the playoffs, the defense put the team in jeopardy of being one and done with its atrocious play in the Baltimore game. Overcoming two 14 point deficits in a playoff game is something that has never been done before. The defense would have easily lost us that game if it wasn't for our incredible offense.

BTW, that stat does not apply to the postseason, as we gave up 2nd half TDs to Seattle and Baltimore.

The best thing we can say about the defense last year is that it was clutch. I see no reason for that to change in 2015 as the players who were most instrumental in those big plays are still on the team.

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Credit to you, though, for realizing this argument failed time and again and attempting to change things up, but the bolded highlights where you were going with this. Further, you've already ceded the argument and threw in a straw man for good measure.

KontradictioN said:

Those goal posts are certainly moving now.



Credit to you, though, for realizing this argument failed time and again and attempting to change things up, but the bolded highlights where you were going with this. Further, you've already ceded the argument and threw in a straw man for good measure.

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The goal posts have not moved. You just never understood the argument.

The defense was not elite, and thus gave up 31 points, which included two 14 point deficits. And it's not like it was going up against The Greatest Show on Turf, either. Coming back from two 14 point deficits is something that had never been done before. So yes, the defense would certainly have lost us the game if it wasn't for the offense picking up the slack. Thanks to the outstanding performance of the offense, we had an opportunity to win the game at the end. When given the opportunity, the defense created a game sealing turnover - which is an example of the many clutch plays it made last season.

It's not even about one game. The entire season showed that the defense was good, and clutch, but not elite.

Ok, the Pats haven't played the best offenses, but at the quarter pole they are #4 in total defense, #3 in passing defense, #4 in sacks, #6 in INTs, and #7 in scoring defense. Remember some of those stats are based on totals for the season (not game average) and the Pats have played 4 games and most of the other teams have played 5.

There is a decent chance the Pats finish in the top 10 in defense. They don't face many good QBs this season.

FourierSeries said:

The goal posts have not moved. You just never understood the argument.

The defense was not elite, and thus gave up 31 points, which included two 14 point deficits. And it's not like it was going up against The Greatest Show on Turf, either. Coming back from two 14 point deficits is something that had never been done before. So yes, the defense would certainly have lost us the game if it wasn't for the offense picking up the slack. Thanks to the outstanding performance of the offense, we had an opportunity to win the game at the end. When given the opportunity, the defense made created a game sealing INT - which is an example of the many clutch plays it made last season.

It's not even about one game. The entire season showed that the defense was good, and clutch, but not elite.

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The goal posts have certainly moved and now you're creating a straw man. I never made any such assertion about the defense being elite so you trying to tell me that it wasn't is wholly irrelevant. My point of contention is the same as it has been in other threads. Only difference is that you've backed off from your stance that the offense had literally everything to do with the run and now you're saying that the offense did most of it, as is stated in the bolded. Naturally, you ignore a few things in the process...

1. That the offense also had a hand in creating both deficits.

2. That the offense needed the defense to create key stops in order to give them the ball back to make it a game again because, ya know, football is a complimentary game.

3. That the defense held a potent Colts offense to 7 points total if you care to discuss the AFCCG.

4. That the defense held Russell Wilson without a pass completion until almost halftime if you care to discuss the Super Bowl.

So no, the bolded is not correct.

Bobsyouruncle said:

They weren't a statistically elite defense, so by what standard are they elite?

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They were a top 8 scoring defense while facing 5 of the top 10 offenses in the league including 1 and 2, and often being comfortably ahead in games, so lets not suggest that they were not very good statistically. As an aside, I find it ironic that this board sometimes finds statistics to be the be all and end all and other times ignores them (E.g. Rodgers v. Brady). The 2014 defense had an uncanny ability to adjust and adapt to whatever challenge was thrown at them. By the time the game was in the balance, they had every answer. I think that is the mark of a great defense, not an ok defense that is "clutch", whatever that means.

KontradictioN said:

The goal posts have certainly moved and now you're creating a straw man. I never made any such assertion about the defense being elite so you trying to tell me that it wasn't is wholly irrelevant. My point of contention is the same as it has been in other threads. Only difference is that you've backed off from your stance that the offense had literally everything to do with the run and now you're saying that the offense did most of it, as is stated in the bolded. Naturally, you ignore a few things in the process...

1. That the offense also had a hand in creating both deficits.

2. That the offense needed the defense to create key stops in order to give them the ball back to make it a game again because, ya know, football is a complimentary game.

3. That the defense held a potent Colts offense to 7 points total if you care to discuss the AFCCG.

4. That the defense held Russell Wilson without a pass completion until almost halftime if you care to discuss the Super Bowl.

So no, the bolded is not correct.

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I don't think I've ever said the offense had everything to do with it, unless it was hyperbole. And if I did state that as hyperbole, I can't fathom a situation in which you'd actually believe I literally meant that it had everything to do with the SB.

1. I'm not sure I agree with that. The turnover before the half maybe, but those two scoring drives at the beginning where the defense just let Flacco pass all over them with the utmost of ease, were entirely on the D. That looked worse than the 2011 defense. They also allowed Baltimore two fairly easy scores in the 2nd half.

2. Yes, the defense was clutch. After playing like **** for a large portion of the game, and while the offense was in the midst of doing something that had never in the history of the game been done before to bring them back, the defense did indeed come up with key stops. Not disputing that.

3. That was a very complete game by the defense. No complains there.

4. Yes, they held him in check for most of the game, then allowed them back in it late in the 1st half by giving up large plays. They also allowed Seattle to move the ball with under 2 minutes left in the game. This was prior to the freak catch by Kearse (I can't blame the D for that one, because it was an even flukier play than the helmet catch.) But again, they made the play at the very end when it mattered most.

betterthanthealternative said:

I've been thinking that the Cowboy focus on Weeden as their problem is a mistake. It lets the other players off the hook. He's been servicable. The coaching staff needs to look the players in the eye and tell them that they need to win the game with him at QB. Just get it done.

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Great observation. Weren't they supposed to be a beastly running offense?

100 yards against the Pats - a team you should try to run against to keep Brady off the field. Hard to lay that on Wheeden.

letekro said:

They were a top 8 scoring defense while facing 5 of the top 10 offenses in the league including 1 and 2, and often being comfortably ahead in games, so lets not suggest that they were not very good statistically. As an aside, I find it ironic that this board sometimes finds statistics to be the be all and end all and other times ignores them (E.g. Rodgers v. Brady). The 2014 defense had an uncanny ability to adjust and adapt to whatever challenge was thrown at them. By the time the game was in the balance, they had every answer. I think that is the mark of a great defense, not an ok defense that is "clutch", whatever that means.

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Because we're talking about entire units here, not individual players. Did we have elite players on defense last year? Absolutely. But it was not elite as a unit.

Is Brady better than Rodgers? Yes, but he hasn't always had better offensive units than Rodgers. Rodgers' stats in any single season don't come close to what Brady did with Moss in 2007.

I see Kontra's kicking ass, but is he taking names or chewing bubble gum?