Congratulations Robert Kraft for helping lead this franchise to historic success

convertedpatsfan said:

I don't know if that was meant as a diss or not. I feel like it was. But the reality is that it truly is a rare skill for an owner or manager to stay the hell out of the way.

It's not easy to entirely give trust to someone else, and Kraft may have learned that the hard way too. He's talked about his problems with Parcells and how he learned from that experience and how it would have been different if it happened today. If it wasn't for that experience, maybe the BB era isn't as successful as it's been. That trust was certainly tested after Kraft fired Pete for going 8-8, then saw BB go 5-11 in his first year, then drop his first 2 games the next season.

You see it around the league, with Jerruh, Snyder, Irsay, and Woody standing out. Meanwhile, the Krafts, the Maras, the Rooneys hire good people and leave them the hell alone. No surprise that those are some of the most successful franchises in the league.

I know it's fashionable to dump on Kraft, and there's no doubt he made a huge mistake in trusting Goodell. He ****ed up, even he admits it, and there's no changing it. And for some, there's no forgiving it. But that doesn't make every single good thing he does a bad thing, and it doesn't mean every single thing he does from now on should be painted as a bad thing either.

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Kraft shouldn't get credit for wins that are a result of staying out of the way (doing nothing) when the credit clearly belongs with B&B.

1960Pats said:

Kraft shouldn't get credit for wins that are a result of staying out of the way (doing nothing) when the credit clearly belongs with B&B.

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So what you are saying is that there can't be a good owner? Kraft is very much the reason for BB being the coach here.

shmessy said:

Dear Lord, where does one start with replying to this incredible post?

"Lucky enough to hire Parcells".............. Maybe you weren't around back then, but thanks for that one!

Being "lucky" to hire anyone is a hilarious statement. Kraft hired Belichick when he was not a hot commodity at all. Not only that, people thought he was crazy for giving up a 1st round pick for the honor of giving the keys to "duplicitous pond scum" (google it).

Then there's the punchline of "A different turn of events, and the Pats would be a mediocre team or in Hartford".. Classic! Evidently, you don't understand than any other owner on earth would have taken Connecticut's money and ran. Kraft went against every rule of capitalism and gave up that Billion Dollar Plus gift and decided to build in beautiful downtown Foxboro. He created Patriot Place in the middle of miles of junk dealerships and abandoned motels.

I guess people like you see that as luck having fallen into his lap.

.

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You've got it wrong there. Orthwein wasn't selling, he merely wanted to get out of the Foxboro stadium lease. Without Kraft painting him in a corner, the team was going to St. Louis, period.

Whatever Kraft did to pressure the local corrupt pols into giving him infrastructure so he could build his owm stadium was a moot point, being that Orthwein would have been in st. Louis with Parcells years before.

Anyone who has followed the Patriots, and stadium deals in this area [not just the Pats] would realize this. You can't get land, political cooperation, money or anything in this area for sports stadiums.

1960Pats said:

Kraft shouldn't get credit for wins that are a result of staying out of the way (doing nothing) when the credit clearly belongs with B&B.

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I agree that BB and Brady deserve the lion's share of the credit, but Kraft deserves some for a few reasons:

1. He didn't **** it up. And yeah, that counts. Jerry Jones had Jimmy Johnson and a budding dynasty in Dallas, but he couldn't stand that Johnson was getting all the credit while he was ignored so he got caught up in that. It's human nature to have an ego, and to want credit. The Patriots check their ego at the door and do what's best for the team, and leadership always starts from the top. It goes straight up to Tom Brady, up to Bill Belichick, all the way to the top to Robert Kraft. If the owner is following the front office, you damn well better believe the 2nd-string DB is going to as well.

2. He trusted BB. That's easier said than done back in the day when BB was 36-44 and fired from his last job after his Super Bowl contender lost 6 of their last 7 to finish 5-11. But Kraft also had a prejudice against BB because he was so close to Parcells. Yet he overcame that, which is not an easy thing to do. And then after firing a coach who went 8-8, he watched the new guy start 5-13, with his $100M+ QB getting injured. He didn't panic publicly at least. He stuck with it.

3. He trusted in BB and Brady. The 6th round pick over the $100M+ Pro Bowl QB not even a year after the contract is signed and the ink is still wet. The trade would end up with a cap hit over $6.6M, which doesn't sound like a lot, but was significant at the time when the salary cap was $71M. The equivalent hit today would be over $13.5M, plus another chunk of money towards Brady's new contract after replacing Drew.

It's easy to look back now and say anyone could have done that, but in 2001, it wasn't so straight-forward. And while he wasn't as successful without BB and Brady, the Patriots went to the play-offs 4 years out of 6 under Kraft before BB came on-board with 2 division titles and a Super Bowl trip, while going 0 for 6 the previous seasons while many thought the team would be moved.

So there's no doubt the Kraft ownership change was positive for the franchise. We can debate whether it's 1% or 10% or 25%, but 0% is just a stupid answer.

RayClay said:

You've got it wrong there. Orthwein wasn't selling, he merely wanted to get out of the Foxboro stadium lease. Without Kraft painting him in a corner, the team was going to St. Louis, period.

Whatever Kraft did to pressure the local corrupt pols into giving him infrastructure so he could build his owm stadium was a moot point, being that Orthwein would have been in st. Louis with Parcells years before.

Anyone who has followed the Patriots, and stadium deals in this area [not just the Pats] would realize this. You can't get land, political cooperation, money or anything in this area for sports stadiums.

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I think you responded to the wrong post.

1960Pats said:

Kraft shouldn't get credit for wins that are a result of staying out of the way (doing nothing) when the credit clearly belongs with B&B.

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How did Belichick get here?

Did the (not Bryan) stork bring him?

convertedpatsfan said:

I agree that BB and Brady deserve the lion's share of the credit, but Kraft deserves some for a few reasons:

1. He didn't **** it up. And yeah, that counts. Jerry Jones had Jimmy Johnson and a budding dynasty in Dallas, but he couldn't stand that Johnson was getting all the credit while he was ignored so he got caught up in that. It's human nature to have an ego, and to want credit. The Patriots check their ego at the door and do what's best for the team, and leadership always starts from the top. It goes straight up to Tom Brady, up to Bill Belichick, all the way to the top to Robert Kraft. If the owner is following the front office, you damn well better believe the 2nd-string DB is going to as well.

2. He trusted BB. That's easier said than done back in the day when BB was 36-44 and fired from his last job after his Super Bowl contender lost 6 of their last 7 to finish 5-11. But Kraft also had a prejudice against BB because he was so close to Parcells. Yet he overcame that, which is not an easy thing to do. And then after firing a coach who went 8-8, he watched the new guy start 5-13, with his $100M+ QB getting injured. He didn't panic publicly at least. He stuck with it.

3. He trusted in BB and Brady. The 6th round pick over the $100M+ Pro Bowl QB not even a year after the contract is signed and the ink is still wet. The trade would end up with a cap hit over $6.6M, which doesn't sound like a lot, but was significant at the time when the salary cap was $71M. The equivalent hit today would be over $13.5M, plus another chunk of money towards Brady's new contract after replacing Drew.

It's easy to look back now and say anyone could have done that, but in 2001, it wasn't so straight-forward. And while he wasn't as successful without BB and Brady, the Patriots went to the play-offs 4 years out of 6 under Kraft before BB came on-board with 2 division titles and a Super Bowl trip, while going 0 for 6 the previous seasons while many thought the team would be moved.

So there's no doubt the Kraft ownership change was positive for the franchise. We can debate whether it's 1% or 10% or 25%, but 0% is just a stupid answer.

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He also built a nice stadium, Patriot Place and the Hall........

Maybe some of the posters here don't remember Schaeffer Stadium and the fact that Foxboro, MA is ..........not a glamorous downtown spot.

shmessy said:

I think you responded to the wrong post.

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No, I responded to your post, which was logical except for the "any other owner" in regards to Connecticut. Any other owner deciding between Conn and Mass would have to be negotiating with Orthwein, the owner of the St. Louis Patriots, because he was already gone. The team was not for sale.

He simply wanted to buy out his lease on the stadium Kraft had bought out of bankruptcy, the reason he met with Kraft. He had a suitcase with St. Louis or bust packed.

Kraft told him he couldn't buy out the lease, period. This is what forced Orthwein to sell to Kraft, he was checkmated.

I guess Kraft got "lucky" again.

I guess the team Kraft bought was the St. Louis Stallions, not Patriots.

i believe that we were lucky to have:

1- Billy Sullivan (without him no Patriots) and he deserve to be in the Pats Hall Of Fame
2 - Robert Kraft (a real fan who then became the owner, what a great story) - without him probably the team would have been mooved...and so no Patriots without him in NE...

so thanks to both - i will always be grateful to them

Orthwein also changed the logo...pity, sad and bad...

probably Kraft would have kept Pat Patriot ?

RayClay said:

No, I responded to your post, which was logical except for the "any other owner" in regards to Connecticut. Any other owner deciding between Conn and Mass would have to be negotiating with Orthwein, the owner of the St. Louis Patriots, because he was already gone. The team was not for sale.

He simply wanted to buy out his lease on the stadium Kraft had bought out of bankruptcy, the reason he met with Kraft. He had a suitcase with St. Louis or bust packed.

Kraft told him he couldn't buy out the lease, period. This is what forced Orthwein to sell to Kraft, he was checkmated.

I guess Kraft got "lucky" again.

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What???

The question of Connecticut came up several years after Kraft bought the team. Orthwein was long gone by 1998 when Governor Rowland and the CT legislature made the offer to Kraft.

I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Kraft came very close to accepting the Billion+ and moving to CT in 1998. Any sane, non-emotional capitalist would have done it.

Anyone who denies Krafts incredibly positive impact on this franchise is just plain wrong! I am deeply offended by what Kraft has done post 2007, but am so very grateful for his buying the team I love.
His first decade as owner was about as good as it gets!

great to see two great Pats Fans (Shmessy and RayClay) discuss as rabid fans

i hope that you are both still my friends

BelizePats said:

Anyone who denies Krafts incredibly positive impact on this franchise is just plain wrong! I am deeply offended by what Kraft has done post 2007, but am so very grateful for his buying the team I love.
His first decade as owner was about as good as it gets!

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It's like Shaughnessy claiming that Parcells is the main reason for the Patriots success.

Parcells in New England was nothing more than Chuck Fairbanks 20 years later.

Parcells (like Fairbanks) left the franchise to fend on its own and wallow.

Check out how the Sullivans reacted for the next several years as owners compared to how the Krafts regathered. THAT is as good an illustration of ownership as can be shown.

italian pat patriot said:

great to see two great Pats Fans (Shmessy and RayClay) discuss as rabid fans

i hope that you are both still my friends

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I was about to post that I have missed you here! Where have you been amico mio?

i was better one year ago...

i was coming 10 days in NE !!!

i saw two games - CHI and DEN ones - 2 wins !

ciao Shmessy

shmessy said:

It's like Shaughnessy claiming that Parcells is the main reason for the Patriots success.

Parcells in New England was nothing more than Chuck Fairbanks 20 years later.

Parcells (like Fairbanks) left the franchise to fend on its own and wallow.

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Parcells is human garbage for what he did to this franchise. There is no one lower than Parcells in the Patriots history. NO ONE!!!

and as i miss NE foliage i will make two week ends here here in Italy where foliage is good (not like NE...of course...) but to 'remember' that time

sorry for OT...

BelizePats said:

Parcells is human garbage for what he did to this franchise. There is no one lower than Parcells in the Patriots history. NO ONE!!!

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I get the Parcells hate. The way he left etc, but come on. Big hand in drafting the foundation of players that would help win 3 championships, Belichick would never be here if they didn't hire Parcells etc. Put up with the **** to fertilize the pasture. He definitely isn't the worst thing that happened to this franchise.