Dump on me all you want, I think Krafty is a little smarter than he's given credit for

RayClay said:

How much was he worth? How much stock did he have in Rand Whitney?

What does that have to do with Kraft buying a controlling interest in a publicly traded company in a leveraged buyout?

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Rand Whitney was privately held.

primetime said:

Rand Whitney was privately held.

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Sole Propietorship under Jacob Hiatt?

Proof?

I erred saying publicly traded, but 12 companies merged to make Rand Whitney. Hiatt was chairman of this new company

BigPeteG said:

This. Problem with this thread is we have some people that can't wrap their head around the idea that rich people can do dumb things. Since Kraft made all this money we are supposed to believe he is secretly smart in the way he handled Goodell and the Patriots punishments.

Even Kraft realizes he was an idiot at this point. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. No doubt Kraft has had this run through his mind. It's okay to like someone and acknowledge that he has done some dumb things. I actually hold Kraft in higher esteem then most. I don't think he is in it just for the money. I think he just made some poor decisions.

In hindsight we can look back and admit that he handled both spygate and deflategate about as poorly as possible.

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You have made the point I was unable to do last night. If there was a Businessman's hall of Fame, Kraft would be a candidate for it. We can all agree Kraft was an almost perfect owner for the team and its fans from the time he bought the team until 2007. I believe that Kraft has not been helpful to the on field performance for the team and its fans since then because of his detrimental relationship with Goodell period. This has no bearing on the fact he is worth billions or that he has made billions for his .fellow owners in their TV contacts. I actually regret making an off-hand comment about marrying the bosses daughter which has certainly clouded the actual issue.

flasox27 said:

You have made the point I was unable to do last night. If there was a Businessman's hall of Fame, Kraft would be a candidate for it. We can all agree Kraft was an almost perfect owner for the team and its fans from the time he bought the team until 2007. I believe that Kraft has not been helpful to the on field performance for the team and its fans since then because of his detrimental relationship with Goodell period. This has no bearing on the fact he is worth billions or that he has made billions for his .fellow owners in their TV contacts. I actually regret making an off-hand comment about marrying the bosses daughter which has certainly clouded the actual issue.

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The "off-hand comment" was posted several times by you, so it wasn't a slip.

I appreciate you clarifying your position, however.

RayClay said:

Sole Propietorship under Jacob Hiatt?

Proof?

I erred saying publicly traded, but 12 companies merged to make Rand Whitney. Hiatt was chairman of this new company

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Well, Kraft purchased half his father-in-law's company three years after he began his career there through a leveraged buyout. Presumably this was done with the blessings of his father-in-law.

I don't know enough about the history of Rand-Whitney to comment, but many of those mergers appear to have happened much earlier, under different proprietorship, and by the time Hiatt was in charge, he very likely owned a great deal of the company. Some of them were undoubtedly hostile takeovers, such as this one (this article is quite unflattering to Kraft, who manages to slur working class Irish of South Boston and working class Polish of Montville, CT in one sentence).

Kraft certainly isn't the only person to benefit from starting his entrepreneurial career from a place of privilege, of course. Most billionaires, despite the Horatio Alger mythology, do so as well. This shouldn't be taken as a criticism unique to him.

primetime said:

Well, Kraft purchased half his father-in-law's company three years after he began his career there through a leveraged buyout. Presumably this was done with the blessings of his father-in-law.

I don't know enough about the history of Rand-Whitney to comment, but many of those mergers appear to have happened much earlier, under different proprietorship, and by the time Hiatt was in charge, he very likely owned a great deal of the company. Some of them were undoubtedly hostile takeovers, such as this one (this article is quite unflattering to Kraft, who manages to slur working class Irish of South Boston and working class Polish of Montville, CT in one sentence).

Kraft certainly isn't the only person to benefit from starting his entrepreneurial career from a place of privilege, of course. Most billionaires, despite the Horatio Alger mythology, do so as well. This shouldn't be taken as a criticism unique to him.

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Hiatt's company, E.F. Dodge was bought by this company, Whitney boxes. Since Whitney was the buyer, not Hiatt, I assume the Whitney brothers maintained a share of ownership. Hiatt was named president and chairman of the new company.



Kraft bought a majority of a company.

I agree with about everything you said now. I never said he was a rags to riches story, merely that he paid for his ownership in the company through debt, that's what a leveraged buyout is. He didn't inherit the company, which is what others have implied.

I'm sure other owners beside Hiatt were impressed with his ambition and prospects also.

Do you have a link for your article, it sounds interesting.

RayClay said:

Do you have a link for your article, it sounds interesting.

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It's linked above ("this one") , the forum just doesn't do a very good job contrasting embedded links from regular text.

RayClay said:

Hey, I'm part German. [not really]

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I am part German....really....part Irish too so I'm really messed up.

PatriotsReign said:

I am part German....really....part Irish too so I'm really messed up.

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So you get drunk, sh*t on your own chest, then write a poem about it, eh?

primetime said:

It's linked above ("this one") , the forum just doesn't do a very good job contrasting embedded links from regular text.

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It doesn't contrast at all on my browser.

Good article. He owns a team in a league that's socialist, so He tried to make deals for the league too.

Seems consistent with someone who isn't going to let a dodo like Goodell wreck his investment; His team, or the league. dodo's doing both IMO.

RayClay said:

So you get drunk, sh*t on your own chest, then write a poem about it, eh?

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Gave up booze in '89....haven't had any buzz since then and all is good.

....and I don't like poop!

http://capecodtimes.com/article/20151008/NEWS/151009446

This article picked up by Fox News 52 minutes ago, just in time for the Hardy pregame talk [sure they'll be]. Apparently Krafty personally called 5 small organizations to give his 1.5 million , announced last month.

"It was like a dream come true," Hurge-Putnam said this week at the organization's annual breakfast

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Their annual breakfast was this week. What a coincidence. Right before we play a woman beater who got the same punishment as Brady for supposed air puffs.

Usually, when the NFL and domestic violence are featured in the same headline, it's not a good thing.

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Nice lede Fox. Man, for a dumb guy, Kraft has gotten a lot of mileage out of keeping domestic violence in the news. It's as if he's trying to have the NFL, domestic violence and offenders Goodell has let off end up in the news.

RayClay said:

Hiatt.

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Lmao

RayClay said:

http://capecodtimes.com/article/20151008/NEWS/151009446

This article picked up by Fox News 52 minutes ago, just in time for the Hardy pregame talk [sure they'll be]. Apparently Krafty personally called 5 small organizations to give his 1.5 million , announced last month.



Their annual breakfast was this week. What a coincidence. Right before we play a woman beater who got the same punishment as Brady for supposed air puffs.


Nice lede Fox. Man, for a dumb guy, Kraft has gotten a lot of mileage out of keeping domestic violence in the news. It's as if he's trying to have the NFL, domestic violence and offenders Goodell has let off end up in the news.

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You don't actually believe this do you, Ray? Come on man. You are way too smart for this!!
Kraft is doing this whether or not we are playing Dallas and Hardy. What I'd like to know is when he starting all this domestic violence funding. It's a great thing to do and the fact that Kraft is targeting "under the radar" groups for funding is another strong element to the story. The only reason I am curious about "when", is was this pre or post coming out in strong support of Goddell over the 2 games he gave Ray Rice. Kraft took a lot of shrapnel from that Goddell Support grenade and a suspicious mind like mine tends to connect the dots. In the end it really does not matter though. Giving money to these kinds of groups is a win win for everyone regardless of the motivation.
I will say this. Krafts handing of the "Framegate" train wreck has completely altered how I view him as an owner. I was disgusted with his acceptance of the "cameraplacement" punishment and I felt his mismanagement/capitulation in 2007 helped pave the way for the general public and national media to frame the franchise as guilty. His absolute bungling of this situation was dreadful and it helped so the very seeds of the 2015 mess. And now we are on to 2015 and this latest pile of $hite. The way Kraft threw the team, his QB, coaches, players and fans under the bus by accepting the fine and loss of draft picks, tells me all I need to know about the man. I cannot stand him. Krafts own actions words and deeds have turned me from staunch supporter of his to one who would would like to see him turn the team over to Jonathon. Or anyone quite frankly. He has betrayed the very fan base he profits from and is not fit to run this franchise. Mind you, there are 31 other owners who think he's perfect for the job.
I keep seeing these posts of yours, Ray, where you present certain stories that are supposed to demonstrate that Kraft is smarter than he is given credit for. This is nonsense! I have a great deal of respect for what you post and have enjoyed reading your thoughts for a decade now. But, on this one you are dead wrong. Kraft is every bit as embarrassing an owner as is Jerry Jones or Daniel Snyder. It just took him a little longer to be exposed.

BelizePats said:

You don't actually believe this do you, Ray? Come on man. You are way too smart for this!!
Kraft is doing this whether or not we are playing Dallas and Hardy. What I'd like to know is when he starting all this domestic violence funding. It's a great thing to do and the fact that Kraft is targeting "under the radar" groups for funding is another strong element to the story. The only reason I am curious about "when", is was this pre or post coming out in strong support of Goddell over the 2 games he gave Ray Rice. Kraft took a lot of shrapnel from that Goddell Support grenade and a suspicious mind like mine tends to connect the dots. In the end it really does not matter though. Giving money to these kinds of groups is a win win for everyone regardless of the motivation.
I will say this. Krafts handing of the "Framegate" train wreck has completely altered how I view him as an owner. I was disgusted with his acceptance of the "cameraplacement" punishment and I felt his mismanagement/capitulation in 2007 helped pave the way for the general public and national media to frame the franchise as guilty. His absolute bungling of this situation was dreadful and it helped so the very seeds of the 2015 mess. And now we are on to 2015 and this latest pile of $hite. The way Kraft threw the team, his QB, coaches, players and fans under the bus by accepting the fine and loss of draft picks, tells me all I need to know about the man. I cannot stand him. Krafts own actions words and deeds have turned me from staunch supporter of his to one who would would like to see him turn the team over to Jonathon. Or anyone quite frankly. He has betrayed the very fan base he profits from and is not fit to run this franchise. Mind you, there are 31 other owners who think he's perfect for the job.
I keep seeing these posts of yours, Ray, where you present certain stories that are supposed to demonstrate that Kraft is smarter than he is given credit for. This is nonsense! I have a great deal of respect for what you post and have enjoyed reading your thoughts for a decade now. But, on this one you are dead wrong. Kraft is every bit as embarrassing an owner as is Jerry Jones or Daniel Snyder. It just took him a little longer to be exposed.

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Maybe he bought the Foxboro racetrack because he liked watching the trotters.

Maybe he bought Gillette stadium because he was looking for a stadium with bad plumbing to host rock concerts.

You know, I think I'm a little bit smart, but I admit there are people a lot smarter and more skilled than me.

Coincidentally, when these people are also very ambitious, the right things eventually happen to them.

You think it's random, I do not.

Daniel Snyder, huh? I hate to make snap judgments about people, but that comparison leads me to totally write you off when it comes to a serious discussion.

I will be the first to admit that Kraft has done some good things in the past.
I've been a fan of this team since 1974 so I've seen a lot of really bad football. Kraft came in and completely changed the direction of the franchise. And for that I will always be grateful. Kraft has has played a fundamental role in his own franchise being viewed with disdain, suspicion and contempt. He has helped shape the very environment that was allowed to percolate and fester, whose forces then went after his own franchise.
For what? A few more $ in his wallet? Was it worth it?
If you can't see this, then by all means write me off.

I'd be interested in people's feelings about what current NFL owner they'd rather have for this team than Bob Kraft and why. Look, no one was more disgusted and disappointed in his total capitulation than I was. But, I'm past the point of moving on. As I've said before, I've lived through the Sullivans, Orthwein, and Kiam, all clowns in their own special way. Bob Kraft undeniably screwed up Spygate and Deflategate and I'd be willing to bet he'd admit to that. They were both colossal screwups. But, the toothpaste is out of the tube and no amount of *****ing, moaning, whining and complaining is going to reinsert the toothpaste into the tube. In my mind, it's time to move on.

Jackson 2 said:

I'd be interested in people's feelings about what current NFL owner they'd rather have for this team than Bob Kraft and why. Look, no one was more disgusted and disappointed in his total capitulation than I was. But, I'm past the point of moving on. As I've said before, I've lived through the Sullivans, Orthwein, and Kiam, all clowns in their own special way. Bob Kraft undeniably screwed up Spygate and Deflategate and I'd be willing to bet he'd admit to that. They were both colossal screwups. But, the toothpaste is out of the tube and no amount of *****ing, moaning, whining and complaining is going to reinsert the toothpaste into the tube. In my mind, it's time to move on.

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That's a good point but having BB is such a huge advantage that it may be instructive to ask which owners would take BB, give him total power over all football and personnel decisions, and butt out and let the winning commence/continue, and only jump in when BB and the team need to be defended from Goodell and his NFL* ex-Rat lackeys.

I can give you one owner for sure who couldn't leave well enough alone, and that would be Jerry Jones.

Jackson 2 said:

I'd be interested in people's feelings about what current NFL owner they'd rather have for this team than Bob Kraft and why. Look, no one was more disgusted and disappointed in his total capitulation than I was. But, I'm past the point of moving on. As I've said before, I've lived through the Sullivans, Orthwein, and Kiam, all clowns in their own special way. Bob Kraft undeniably screwed up Spygate and Deflategate and I'd be willing to bet he'd admit to that. They were both colossal screwups. But, the toothpaste is out of the tube and no amount of *****ing, moaning, whining and complaining is going to reinsert the toothpaste into the tube. In my mind, it's time to move on.

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It's hard to disagree with any of this. I'm certainly over it but the way I view Kraft has been irrevocably changed. And that is the point I was trying to make. It is true that he has done more than anyone to build this franchise in to what it is. Unfortunately for fans of the Pats, he has also done more than anyone to undermine and jeopardize its future success. This cannot and should not be ignored. Hopefully he does not do any more to damage this franchise. In questioning his dreadful decision making since 2007, I am by no means wiping out the good he he done prior to that. But, I can't just sit back and read about how smart he is etc etc when I see a lot of really reckless actions/decisions coming out of the man. Sadly, he has become just another owner.

The Gr8est said:

That's a good point but having BB is such a huge advantage that it may be instructive to ask which owners would take BB, give him total power over all football and personnel decisions, and butt out and let the winning commence/continue, and only jump in when BB and the team need to be defended from Goodell and his NFL* ex-Rat lackeys.

I can give you one owner for sure who couldn't leave well enough alone, and that would be Jerry Jones.

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Yeah, I agree with you. I'd much rather have Jerry Jones as my owner rather than Bob Kraft. He could be the GM here, too, as he is in Dallas, and Belichick could be his puppet, just as Jason Garret is. That's a GREAT idea. Thanks for thinking of it!! Are you f###### ****ting me? Is this what it's come to? And for what it's worth, I think your usually a pretty good poster. Jesus Effing Christ...