The pace Jamie Collins is on..

DropKickFlutie said:

Collins is a top10 stud but his game is very different from LT. LT was a sack master. Collins isn't a sack master but he's elite at everything else.

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LT was better than Collins is at everything else, too. Playing the run inside, setting the edge, coverage, etc.

Collins' ceiling is still to be discovered so we don't know where the comparison will end up.

Fencer said:

Defenses are a lot more complicated than in Taylor's era. Also, in particular, Taylor often got to play "elephant" and choose his role and position.

All that said, I think of Taylor as controlling the playing field in a way that Watt might, but Collins doesn't.

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LT played where he was told to play. Tuna and BB did not allow him to freelance.

robertweathers said:

LT played where he was told to play. Tuna and BB did not allow him to freelance.

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http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2015/09/08/nfl-jj-watt-houston-texans says otherwise. It fits my memories of the era.

robertweathers said:

LT played where he was told to play. Tuna and BB did not allow him to freelance.

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Here's a 1987 article. Note the title.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1987-01-22/sports/8701050250_1_nasty-players-tobacco-juice-lt

N.y. Defense Taylor-made Giants Linebacker Lawrence Taylor Lines Up Anywhere He Likes -- And Nobody Has Been Able To Stop Him.

Fencer said:

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2015/09/08/nfl-jj-watt-houston-texans says otherwise. It fits my memories of the era.

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Thanks for sharing. Good discussion. Lets drill down...

There is Brandon Merriwether "roaming" and there is Lawrence Taylor "roaming". One player is an complete idiot that the coaches didn't trust and there is LT who was a high football IQ who knew the defense in-n-out, knows what the offense was running and had the latitude to call defensive audibles. He'd walk into meetings late and BB would hand him the chalk and tell him to draw up the defensive gameplan for the next game complete with positional alignments, nickle/dime blitz packages on down/distance and he'd nail it every time. He was Brady on coke...lol.

Here is what RAC said.

“Lawrence Taylor was a special kind of player, but having him in one place, offenses began to scheme for him in that one place,” Crennel says. “When we were able to pick him up and let him move around, they couldn’t necessarily scheme for him. He can look at the formation, he can look at the backfield set, look at the blockers and decide where he wants to go, and then the rest of the defense worked around it."

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LT still needed to check with guys like Harry Carson, Carl Banks, Pepper Johnson or Gary Reasons on the call and they'd slide guys over for LT or they would adjust the call based on what he saw. Other guys like Leonard Marshall, George Martin or Washington he'd tap on the left or right butt cheek to tell them what side he was coming and always maintaining gap control in the process.

Thats the part of LTs game that very few appreciate....he was Larry Bird/Wayne Gretsky out there. He saw things happen before they actually happened and mostly guessed right and when he didn't he had the physical ability to make up for it. Incredible.

Fencer said:

Here's a 1987 article. Note the title.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1987-01-22/sports/8701050250_1_nasty-players-tobacco-juice-lt

N.y. Defense Taylor-made Giants Linebacker Lawrence Taylor Lines Up Anywhere He Likes -- And Nobody Has Been Able To Stop Him.

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Yep! See my other post. Everyone deferred to LT-but there was a process in place that allowed him to move that his teammates and the coaches were comfortable with.

robertweathers said:

Thanks for sharing. Good discussion. Lets drill down...

There is Brandon Merriwether "roaming" and there is Lawrence Taylor "roaming". One player is an complete idiot that the coaches didn't trust and there is LT who was a high football IQ who knew the defense in-n-out, knows what the offense was running and had the latitude to call defensive audibles. He'd walk into meetings late and BB would hand him the chalk and tell him to draw up the defensive gameplan for the next game complete with positional alignments, nickle/dime blitz packages on down/distance and he'd nail it every time. He was Brady on coke...lol.

Here is what RAC said.



LT still needed to check with guys like Harry Carson, Carl Banks, Pepper Johnson or Gary Reasons on the call and they'd slide guys over for LT or they would adjust the call based on what he saw. Other guys like Leonard Marshall, George Martin or Washington he'd tap on the left or right butt cheek to tell them what side he was coming and always maintaining gap control in the process.

Thats the part of LTs game that very few appreciate....he was Larry Bird/Wayne Gretsky out there. He saw things happen before they actually happened and mostly guessed right and when he didn't he had the physical ability to make up for it. Incredible.

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Fair enough. In essence, LT could:

1. Audible a call.
2. Make the decision based largely on what was best for his individual contribution to the play. (I think that's fair even though you're right to stress that the other guys needed to be successful in their assignments as well.)

That's not Jamie Collins' role to date.

Fencer said:

Fair enough. In essence, LT could:

1. Audible a call.
2. Make the decision based largely on what was best for his individual contribution to the play. (I think that's fair even though you're right to stress that the other guys needed to be successful in their assignments as well.)

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You got it. The main reason I think for BB in why he put LT on stage to chalk -outline the entire scheme and review film in front of the defense was to instill confidence in the other players of what LT was all about. With Martin, Carson, Burt, etc you had big-time vets on that D. He had to win them over to get their buy in on the "roaming" so to speak. Harry Carson ran that defense but LT saw things he just didn't see. It was a consummate team-first move to let LT make the adjustments after Harry made the calls. However, keep in mind 1985 BB was in Year 1 as a DC and LT had a fat contract. He needed LT to be on his side so I do think that there was a quid-pro-quo there. I cant prove it though. Just a story that was passed down. He was his positional coach also when he was a rookie so there is absolutely a relationship there.

Full Disclosure: My dad was/is a die-hard Giants fan. He used to drag me (willingly) to games in the Meadowlands a couple of times a year during the 80s. We'd either drive down the night before or get up at 5am and drive. Used to do my homework in the hotel room. Good times though. Helluva experience. Funny. I'm as old now as he was back then....man this thread brings back the memories. Thanks!

Fencer said:

That's not Jamie Collins' role to date.

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I agree. I think Mayo and Hi have the green dot. Collins reminds me of a Carl Banks/Pepper Johnson combo. Quick. Fast. Smart. Powerful. Great instincts. I love him. If he isn't All-Pro this year it's complete BS.

woolster22 said:

He could easily end up with 3 sacks v indy as well...

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3 if he is sitting on the bench after the half.

Fencer said:

On what do you base that? BB recently said that Collins would likely have been the choice at 29, if the trade down hadn't been possible.

http://nep.247sports.com/Bolt/Bill-Belichick-reflects-on-trading-back-for-Jamie-Collins-40005703

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That article is not really that complimentary to Collins. I was listening to him on D&H when he talked about working out Bostic for about an hour. I am looking for a podcast of that segment. The written part of the interview I believe have left somethings of it. Yes, he went on to say there were other guys in the workout as well and not just Bostic, but I remember hearing him say, When the Bears took Bostic two spots ahead of us, we had to take Collins... That just gave me a sinking feeling that is all. I may be paranoid with his obsession with Gators, but he may have had Bostic higher on his board than Collins.

vuudu said:

That article is not really that complimentary to Collins. I was listening to him on D&H when he talked about working out Bostic for about an hour. I am looking for a podcast of that segment. The written part of the interview I believe have left somethings of it. Yes, he went on to say there were other guys in the workout as well and not just Bostic, but I remember hearing him say, When the Bears took Bostic two spots ahead of us, we had to take Collins... That just gave me a sinking feeling that is all. I may be paranoid with his obsession with Gators, but he may have had Bostic higher on his board than Collins.

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Based on your information, perhaps they were 1 and 1A on the draft board, and one reason for trading down was the hope that at least one of them would be available.

supafly said:

They are all under contract through the end of the 2016 season due to the Pats picking up the fifth year options of Chandler Jones and Hightower. As mentioned by the previous poster, Collins was a 2nd round pick so he's due at the same time since the fifth year isn't an option.

Either way you look at it, we'll have all 3 of those players hitting FA after next season, so they'll almost certainly want to extend one sooner rather than later. That would leave them one more player to extend, assuming that they are going to try and keep some combo of 2/3. They could end up trying to keep all three.

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We have a lot of dead cap money coming off the books next year from players like Revis and Mankins

My priority order would be Collins, Hightower, Jones

Mayo will be off the books next year so that cap money will be replaced by hightower.. the dead money from Mankins and Revis will leave enough room for Collins.

Not sure where the money for Jones will come from.. and soon after them, Malcom Butler and Solder will be due for extensions as well..

And stork

TommyD4207 said:

Well....

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Now just a freaking minute....let's not put him in the Hall of Fame just yet. LT changed the game; Collins is not there yet.

Collins is a freak in that he good at rushing the passer and he can cover. He got burned in the Super Bowl once or twice, but this year he has been fantastic. He also hits really hard. He beat the crap out of Marshawn Lynch in the Super Bowl, but Lynch is too big and stoooopid to feel it.

Once thing I am curious about is that Collins seems like a loner on the sidelines. Anyone else notice that?

Now all keep in mind I didn't make this thread to compare him to LT, don't get me wrong he is special and should be one of the best in the business by the end of the year, but let's pump the breaks just a little bit...

JarOfMayo51 said:

We have a lot of dead cap money coming off the books next year from players like Revis and Mankins

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Yep. As usual, some of that dead cap money will be replaced by others, but it should be a night and day difference to this year.

Joey007 said:

Now all keep in mind I didn't make this thread to compare him to LT, don't get me wrong he is special and should be one of the best in the business by the end of the year, but let's pump the breaks just a little bit...

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Yep. Your OP was that he is kicking ass and is on a pace to be a ProBowler and pot'l All-Pro.

While statistcally hes on a similar pace as he, Collins is no LT.

Another FF and a bunch of tackles. Should have had at least 1 more sack and probably another ff but was held.

Definitely got screwed out of a sacked today.

TriplecHamp said:

Another FF and a bunch of tackles. Should have had at least 1 more sack and probably another ff but was held.

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That play pissed me off. The hold had nothing to do with the play, and then it kept Dallas on the field WHICH lead to the drive benign extended WHICH lead to Hightower getting hurt WHICH also leads to not being able to blitz with Jamie as much while Hightower is out which keeps him from getting as many sacks.

Quite a domino effect. Still despite all that flat out balled today.