OT: The Brady-McDaniels connection is the most underrated relationship in the Patriots organization

Deus Irae said:

He doesn't have one. He's trying to split a hair that has no business being split.

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You made a nonsensical comment, saying that you could say the same exact thing regarding Belichick, when another poster said JMD stints in Denver and St. Louis proved him to be mediocre.

Armchair Quarterback said:

You made a nonsensical comment, saying that you could say the same exact thing regarding Belichick, when another poster said JMD stints in Denver and St. Louis proved him to be mediocre.

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He said that to show that the original comment was ridiculous.

Armchair Quarterback said:

You made a nonsensical comment, saying that you could say the same exact thing regarding Belichick, when another poster said JMD stints in Denver and St. Louis proved him to be mediocre.

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My comment wasn't nonsensical at all. Obviously, if you wish to fall back on things that don't matter, you can split the hair, which is why I later mentioned trying to split a hair that shouldn't be split. You could always just fall back on "Well McDaniels didn't live in the same house as Belichick, so it's not the exact same thing!". That would be as relevant as your current argument.

kudzif said:

Brady is good with or without McDaniels. After Denver and St Louis McDaniels proved himself to be mediocre.

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glm said:

The original argument wasn't about who had success outside of the pats organization.

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Once again, JMD did indeed prove to be mediocre (and that's a generous description) during his stints with Denver and St. Louis, BB won 2 SB's as coordinator - therefore not the same exact thing. You can carry on this foolishness without me.

Armchair Quarterback said:

Once again, JMD did indeed prove to be mediocre (and that's a generous description) during his stints with Denver and St. Louis, BB won 2 SB's as coordinator - therefore not the same exact thing. You can carry on this foolishness without me.

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JMD proved nothing, either positively or negatively, in St. Louis. He had no opportunity to prove anything, being there for just one season, while losing his:

Starting QB
Backup QB
Starting 3 WRs (Amendola, the team's WR1 at the time, played only one game, for example)
etc...

As I said, you're trying to split a hair that shouldn't be split.

Deus Irae said:

JMD proved nothing, either positively or negatively, in St. Louis. He had no opportunity to prove anything, being there for just one season, while losing his:

Starting QB
Backup QB
Starting 3 WRs (Amendola, the team's WR1 at the time, played only one game, for example)
etc...

As I said, you're trying to split a hair that shouldn't be split.

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The point is you can make the argument McDaniels hasn't been successful without Brady, because he hasn't.

You can't make the argument BB wouldn't be successful without Brady because he has been successful, he has two SB rings without Brady.

"Well no **** Sherlock!"

Wait no that was BOB..

Bobsyouruncle said:

The point is you can make the argument McDaniels hasn't been successful without Brady, because he hasn't.

You can't make the argument BB wouldn't be successful without Brady because he has been successful, he has two SB rings without Brady.

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That's not a point. That's a ridiculous assertion. It's a huge difference. This isn't just apples to oranges. It's apples to moonbeams.

Belichick = 9 seasons as a coordinator without Brady, with plenty of great players and a superior HC
McDaniels = 1 season as a coordinator without Brady with a bunch of stiffs and a mediocre HC

Here's the reasonable reality:

McDaniels = 0 SB wins as HC without Brady
Belichick = 0 SB wins as a HC without Brady

Trying to argue that you can get anything from McDaniels one year in STL to compare to BB's 9 years in NY/NY just demonstrates either a lack of honesty or or a lack of intelligence.

kudzif said:

Brady is good with or without McDaniels. After Denver and St Louis McDaniels proved himself to be mediocre.

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Deus Irae said:

The exact same argument can be made regarding BB.

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Deus Irae said:

JMD proved nothing, either positively or negatively, in St. Louis. He had no opportunity to prove anything, being there for just one season, while losing his:

Starting QB
Backup QB
Starting 3 WRs (Amendola, the team's WR1 at the time, played only one game, for example)
etc...

As I said, you're trying to split a hair that shouldn't be split.

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If BB's was the DC for a team that won 2 Super Bowls, and JMD, according to you, proved nothing good or bad because he had no opportunity to prove anything in St.Louis. Then you can't say "The exact same argument can be made regarding BB."

The OC hate in general is laughable, every fanbase thinks they have the worst in the league. It's just too easy to be a Captain Hindsight and grade plays 100% on if they work or not.

Armchair Quarterback said:

If BB's was the DC for a team that won 2 Super Bowls, and JMD, according to you, proved nothing good or bad because he had no opportunity to prove anything in St.Louis. Then you can't say "The exact same argument can be made regarding BB."

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Of course I can. I'm not the one trying to split hairs by pointing to a guy's work as a coordinator in comparison to a guy who's work in that area is clearly not capable of being adequately assessed. I'm the one noting the equality of both failing as HCs without Brady.

Deus Irae said:

That's not a point. That's a ridiculous assertion. It's a huge difference. This isn't just apples to oranges. It's apples to moonbeams.

Belichick = 9 seasons as a coordinator without Brady, with plenty of great players and a superior HC
McDaniels = 1 season as a coordinator without Brady with a bunch of stiffs and a mediocre HC

Here's the reasonable reality:

McDaniels = 0 SB wins as HC without Brady
Belichick = 0 SB wins as a HC without Brady

Trying to argue that you can get anything from McDaniels one year in STL to compare to BB's 9 years in NY/NY just demonstrates either a lack of honesty or or a lack of intelligence.

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Except that you responded to to someone who said JMD proved to be mediocre in Denver and St Louis and you said the same thing could be said about BB.

Armchair Quarterback said:

Except that you responded to to someone who said JMD proved to be mediocre in Denver and St Louis and you said the same thing could be said about BB.

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You continue to make the same stupid assertion, as if it means or shows something. It doesn't.

Deus Irae said:

Of course I can. I'm not the one trying to split hairs by pointing to a guy's work as a coordinator in comparison to a guy who's work in that area is clearly not capable of being adequately assessed.

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Then...... you can say the same exact thing about BB would be an incorrect statement now wouldn't it?

Armchair Quarterback said:

Then...... you can say the same exact thing about BB would be an incorrect statement now wouldn't it?

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No. Sorry, but you don't have your "A ha!" moment here, no matter how hard you try to make it one. As I've noted, multiple times, you're trying to split a hair that doesn't belong getting split.

Deus Irae said:

You continue to make the same stupid assertion, as if it means or shows something. It doesn't.

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Very hostile, are you incapable of disagreeing with someone without lashing out? Most people outgrow that by the time they're 10 or so. Have a good night.

Armchair Quarterback said:

Very hostile, are you incapable of disagreeing with someone without lashing out? Most people outgrow that by the time they're 10 or so. Have a good night.

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I'm not being hostile at all. I'm simply responding to you. You were searching for a 'gotcha' moment that's clearly not there, and you kept pounding the same assertion and arguments over and over in an attempt to do it. I simply said your assertion was stupid. It was.

Ciao

Armchair Quarterback said:

And he had Brady on those teams, right? That's the point.

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I thought that was the goal of every Offensive Coordinator...to utilize the talents of a quarterback and drive them to be as successful as possible?

It really shouldn't matter whether McD needs Brady to be successful. The fact that he can coach Brady, bring out the best in him, and devise a successful gameplan, is enough evidence of his abilities. And that's basically what this thread is about - not whether McD is qualified to be a HC/OC independently of Brady.

borg said:

Personally, I loved Weiss' offense better. Sure different era....blah blah blah....Charlie kept D's off balance and made SB champions out of a neophyte QB, discarded RB (Smith), and physically unimpressive WRs. McDaniels has an All World WR , TE, and QB at his disposal for much of his tenure.

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People keep saying that, but Charlie Weis had incredible defenses backing up his offense. I will argue that the 2003 offense was one of the worst offenses of Brady's career and the Pats won a lot of very low scoring games where the Pats didn't even score a TD on offense. They beat the Browns 9-6, they beat the Dolphins 12-0, they beat the Cowboys 12-0. And the Pats went three and out a lot. Go back and look some of the game logs from that year.

The Dynasty years were more about the defense than the offense except for 2004. Different era when defense could play defense and the defense carried this team. People were calling for Weis to be fired before 2004. Weis was never the Weis that people seem to remember him being until he got Corey Dillon to bring balance to the offense.

And people continually overrate the talent around Brady in the during the McDaniels years. Yes, the 2007 team (and this and last year's team) was pretty stacked and, when healthy, Gronk is a force of nature. But Gronk wasn't healthy for most of the year in 2012 or 2013 and the Pats were working with not a lot of pieces. He was working with less than Weis had many years as the OC here.

Armchair Quarterback said:

Once again, JMD did indeed prove to be mediocre (and that's a generous description) during his stints with Denver and St. Louis, BB won 2 SB's as coordinator - therefore not the same exact thing. You can carry on this foolishness without me.

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How can you blame McDaniels for his stint in St.Louis? I could have been a better a QB than what he had to deal with and his receiving corp wasn't much better. His starting QBs (yes, he had three different starting QBs that season) were Bradford who was injured for most of the year, AJ Feeley, and Kellen Clemmons. The leading WR on the team in terms of receptions, yards, and TDs was Brandon Lloyd and he was traded to the team halfway through the season. All he had was Stephen Jackson and no other offensive talent.