Trade of Akiem Hicks another blow to Saints' dismal scouting record: Jeff Duncan

patfanken said:

This is a point I was just about to make and it's a good one. I often see fans say, "Bill can't draft CB's". to which I say, "who can".

Right now we are in a league that has too few of 2 positions, QB's and CB's. Every year approximate 15-20 CB's are drafted. How many of them turn out to be true #1 CB's. Not very many, including a lot of #1 picks who aren't doing as well as Malcom Butler. CB is such a tough position to play now days with all the rules they put on you, you can scout all you want, you really won't know if a kid can play.....until he does. And even then it takes a few years before even the rare good ones, can reach a kind of consistency.

Sometimes we think that it is just a matter of using a high enough pick to get your guy. Clearly history tells us that it's a lot more than that. Finding a quality CB is just as big a mystery as finding a quality QB

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If its that hard to hit on a CB or WR, maybe the the FO should stop wasting picks in the first three rounds on them. Use those high round picks on positions that are easier to project. I stopped counting how many busts were taken in the first three rounds the year the immortal Ros I Dowling was chosen. like i said, at that time the pats used 13 picks in the first three rounds going back to 2001 with only mccourty to show for it. Its kind of hard to believe a team could use so much capital in one area with almost nothing to show for it unless thay had a blind spot when it comes to choosing that position. Every year it seems the pats take an un-heard of D-back in the second round. They're un-heard of for a good,reason they just seem to be of average or below talent. Or they have talent but have a history of injuries.

reflexblue said:

If its that hard to hit on a CB or WR, maybe the the FO should stop wasting picks in the first three rounds on them. Use those high round picks on positions that are easier to project. I stopped counting how many busts were taken in the first three rounds the year the immortal Ros I Dowling was chosen. like i said, at that time the pats used 13 picks in the first three rounds going back to 2001 with only mccourty to show for it. Its kind of hard to believe a team could use so much capital in one area with almost nothing to show for it unless thay had a blind spot when it comes to choosing that position. Every year it seems the pats take an un-heard of D-back in the second round. They're un-heard of for a good,reason they just seem to be of average or below talent. Or they have talent but have a history of injuries.

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Should they just load up on areas for which we have no needs?

First 7 picks for New England this year:

Malcom Brown
Jordan Richards
Geneo Grissom
Trey Flowers
Tre Jackson
Shaq Mason
Joe Cardona

They all have, or will, play, this year, and several are contributing mightily. I guess they're learning their lesson.

By the way, that this crew + Andrews (Roberts got hurt, or add him, too) is contributing on the deepest roster in teh NFL is mind-blowing to me.

50-yard-line said:

Should they just load up on areas for which we have no needs?

First 7 picks for New England this year:

Malcom Brown
Jordan Richards
Geneo Grissom
Trey Flowers
Tre Jackson
Shaq Mason
Joe Cardona

They all have, or will, play, this year, and several are contributing mightily. I guess they're learning their lesson.

By the way, that this crew + Andrews (Roberts got hurt, or add him, too) is contributing on the deepest roster in teh NFL is mind-blowing to me.

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Thats this year, you can't take one year and applie it as a whole. there were years (going back to '08 '09 '10 '11) that this team was in desperate need of a pass rush, instead of taking pass rushers or d-lineman we took dbs, go back and look. I don't consider what i'm saying an opinion, the numbers speak for themselves.

reflexblue said:

Thats this year, you can't take one year and applie it as a whole. there were years (going back to '08 '09 '10 '11) that this team was in desperate need of a pass rush, instead of taking pass rushers or d-lineman we took dbs, go back and look. I don't consider what i'm saying an opinion, the numbers speak for themselves.

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Starting with the Jones-Hightower picks, BB has built the defense he wants. He seemed to approach last year's draft with: who can make the team? Thus, Cardona in the 5th.

Rhodey said:

"The talented but inconsistent Hicks clearly had fallen out of favor with the team's staff and brain trust."

"Still, his precipitous fall from grace is startling when you consider just 13 months ago he was considered a lynchpin along the Saints' defensive front."

"The transaction further indicts the Saints' college scouting department, which was overhauled in the offseason. Hicks was the only remaining player from the team's five-man 2012 draft class still on the roster."

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2015/09/trade_of_akiem_hicks_another_b.html

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I think (hope) that Hicks was miscast as a 3-4 DE, and that his performance will improve by returning
to his more natural 4-3 DT position.

reflexblue said:

Thats this year, you can't take one year and applie it as a whole. there were years (going back to '08 '09 '10 '11) that this team was in desperate need of a pass rush, instead of taking pass rushers or d-lineman we took dbs, go back and look. I don't consider what i'm saying an opinion, the numbers speak for themselves.

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The only time you could say that they took at DB higher than apparent need was with McCourty. And he ended up being an enormous need by the time the season started.

I'm not saying there wasn't an odd avoidance of OLB/DE types in the draft, but all the DBs selected were needs at the time.

captain stone said:

I think (hope) that Hicks was miscast as a 3-4 DE, and that his performance will improve by returning
to his more natural 4-3 DT position.

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When did the saints go to a 3-4? This guy was showing major potential and then it just dissappeared. Nice to have that interior rush.

I just intuitively feel like Daly, Belichick, and maybe Graham are going to unleash this guy's talent and turn him into a complete ****ing monster.

Saints going to be crying before the end.

PatriotsPimp136 said:

When did the saints go to a 3-4? This guy was showing major potential and then it just dissappeared. Nice to have that interior rush.

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Off the top of my head, I believe the switch came when Rob Ryan replaced Gregg Williams/Steve Spagnuolo as DC.
Ryan of course was Pats LBs coach during the early SB years, and so took his 3-4 knowledge with him
to NO; but sometimes if you have a defense of square pegs you might not want to fit them into the round
hole that you prefer.

reflexblue said:

BBs record for drafting CBs and WR's is not the greatest.

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Chad Jackson is the next Moss..who are you kidding!

saints gave mark ingraham/cj spiller big deals while bill finds dion lewis on the scrapheap.
thank god we have belichick running the team..

RayClay said:

Since mccourty's a S.

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The best jokes are the ones you have to explain

We average a superbowl appearance almost every other year in the bb and Brady era so trust the coach and what he can do with the talent around him. Enjoy the ride. I stopped worrying about draft picks a long time ago when I realized we got Brady as a sixth rounder and most recently if butler pans out we got first round value from an undrafted player. Its a guessing game until a player proves himself or not no matter what round he comes from, and when he does you waste a lot of time basing your opinions on hindsight.

reflexblue said:

Thats this year, you can't take one year and applie it as a whole. there were years (going back to '08 '09 '10 '11) that this team was in desperate need of a pass rush, instead of taking pass rushers or d-lineman we took dbs, go back and look. I don't consider what i'm saying an opinion, the numbers speak for themselves.

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Well we needed DBs too, it wasn't exactly the Colts taking Phillip Dorsett in the first.

captain stone said:

I think (hope) that Hicks was miscast as a 3-4 DE, and that his performance will improve by returning
to his more natural 4-3 DT position.

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On Bostic, it turned out the Pats were interested in drafting him and followed his progress afterwards...like they do many of their potential draftees. (It's almost like the draft is still going on for the Pats.) Hicks is interesting. As the article noted, many believe players like this shouldn't be walking away...almost like Dougie Hamilton with the Bruins. If you get the good draft picks, why aren't you developing them? Fair question. It appears the Saints questioned their whole staff and changed course; got rid of the players from their (draft-selected) group. Regardless, Hicks could end up being one of those players the Pats wouldn't have been able to get, unless he came through a situation like this. Hopefully, it will work out for all. Winning and being around players/personnel committed to such can be a great motivator. And the Pats just don't talk winning, they win!

captain stone said:

I think (hope) that Hicks was miscast as a 3-4 DE, and that his performance will improve by returning
to his more natural 4-3 DT position.

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Hicks was certainly miscast in 3-4. That doesn't mean that he'll be better than the four DT's ahead of hm in the depth chart: Branch, Siliga, Easley and Brown. Of course, Grissom and Johnson have been taking reps at DT when we play dime.

This seems a good use of the additional $700K of cap room.

reflexblue said:

BBs record for drafting CBs and WR's is not the greatest.

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Two positions that only have can't-miss prospects in the top 10 of the draft.

captain stone said:

Off the top of my head, I believe the switch came when Rob Ryan replaced Gregg Williams/Steve Spagnuolo as DC.
Ryan of course was Pats LBs coach during the early SB years, and so took his 3-4 knowledge with him
to NO; but sometimes if you have a defense of square pegs you might not want to fit them into the round
hole that you prefer.

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To clarify, Hicks was not miscast as a 3-4 DE, his best year by far was 2013 when he played 3-4 left end exclusively. And in 2012, he showed a ton of promise as a rookie playing inside in a 4-3. This year, we started out as a 3-4, but ended up switching to a 4-3 over because of injuries. Hicks was tried outside and inside, not effective in either place.

Fit has never been his problem, he just doesn't give consistent effort. He'll look great one series and then disappear the next. If you caught any of the Saints-Cowboys game last night we're playing a rookie Bobby Richardson at that end spot, and it's a night and day difference with consistent pressure every pass down.

I think Hicks is just one of those guys who plays great in an ideal situation. When things are going well, he's all over the place, making plays and looking like a superstar. When things start going bad, he gets down on himself maybe? I don't know, whatever the case he is not one of those guys that lifts up his teammates and keeps going hard when the chips are down.

Roboturner913 said:

To clarify, Hicks was not miscast as a 3-4 DE, his best year by far was 2013 when he played 3-4 left end exclusively. And in 2012, he showed a ton of promise as a rookie playing inside in a 4-3. This year, we started out as a 3-4, but ended up switching to a 4-3 over because of injuries. Hicks was tried outside and inside, not effective in either place.

Fit has never been his problem, he just doesn't give consistent effort. He'll look great one series and then disappear the next. If you caught any of the Saints-Cowboys game last night we're playing a rookie Bobby Richardson at that end spot, and it's a night and day difference with consistent pressure every pass down.

I think Hicks is just one of those guys who plays great in an ideal situation. When things are going well, he's all over the place, making plays and looking like a superstar. When things start going bad, he gets down on himself maybe? I don't know, whatever the case he is not one of those guys that lifts up his teammates and keeps going hard when the chips are down.

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Though I somewhat agree with this. I dont think Hicks has been on a well coached defensive team. I think you have to also include that Saints defensive coaching has been some of the worst in 9 years of any team in the NFL. Vitt, Ryan and the others are not very good.
Saints ranked defense sense Brees
2014 31
2013 4
2012 32
2011 24
2010 4
2009 25
2008 23
2007 26
2006 11
( 2013,2010, were very weak schedules were we maybe played 2-3 team above 8-8)
Saints offensive Rank based on yards
2014 1
2013 4
2012 2
2011 1
2010 6
2009 1
2008 1
2007 4
2006 1
The decline of the Saints has been mostly that the offence has become average with Brees's injuries over the last few season,rooks, and BG. The defense has been so poorly coached that we need 30 pts a game to win usually. Unlike the 24 pt NFL norm. The explosive offense has been hidding the defensive problems for a very long time. I really believe Hicks has the talent to do well as a run stopper on a better coached defensive team. He will do well in NE I think. I mean my gosh its a miricle Brees won anything with this defense.