Revisiting Wes Welker (Bye Week Edition)

Snake Eyes said:

https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/welker4.jpg

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OK. WW sucked here.

robertweathers said:

OK. So is that a knock on WW or an observation about WRs in general?

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WW ran short routes which were less effective when there was no potential for yards after the catch. When receivers run intermediate or deep routes, a catch without YAC still moves the chains. Mentioning YAC is pointless when I specified tight coverage. That's the whole crux of my comment.

Concussion Protocol said:

WW ran short routes which were less effective when there was no potential for yards after the catch. When receivers run intermediate or deep routes, a catch without YAC still moves the chains. Mentioning YAC is pointless when I specified tight coverage. That's the whole crux of my comment.

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Of course but that IS the role of that position/role. Running shallow routes and gaining quick separation is a trait that the team looks for in that role. WW, JE11, etc.

PATS16N0 said:

I'm not a Welker fan anymore. I don't know when nostalgic Patriot fans are going to get it through their thick skulls that he went to a newly emerging -and short lived- Conference rival for the same money purely to stick it to us.

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What teams were even interested in signing him? I don't necessarily blame him for wanting to move on from NE. It's normal to want to move on from something even if you liked it for some period of time. The fact that it was Denver/Manning makes it LESS offensive to me, because if the Patriots are off the table, what other situations would seem like the best opportunities? Again, I don't know which teams even wanted him, but Denver had to have been up on the list no matter who you are.

robertweathers said:

Of course but that IS the role of that position/role. Running shallow routes and gaining quick separation is a trait that the team looks for in that role. WW, JE11, etc.

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My comment wasn't a criticism of Welker, more of the offensive philosophy and/or Brady. It was frustrating to see a completed pass on first down, a completed pass on second down, and still face 3rd and 2.

Concussion Protocol said:

My comment wasn't a criticism of Welker, more of the offensive philosophy and/or Brady. It was frustrating to see a completed pass on first down, a completed pass on second down, and still face 3rd and 2.

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Yes but it's worked pretty well.

If you get right down to it, the Patriots entire offensive philosophy is predicated on two things and two things only.

1) High percentage plays. As you say they would rather have 8 plays, with 4 gains of 30 yards than 6 plays and 1 gain of 30 yards because....

2) They believe that the defense will eventually screw up (bad D call, bad tackling, etc)

One of the things people keep forgetting is that that spring most of the pro-Welker people on the board predicted that the market for him would be at LEAST $8-9MM/yr to sign him I know that I was not among those people, BUT I dud think it would be a bit more than the $6/yr he managed from Denver.

Welker did some great things for the Pats while he was here. It was a shame he left on such bitter terms, but it was a choice that he made to go for the max. It turned out that the true market for Wes was a lot lower than a lot of people figured including Wes

Also IIRC, the total package for the Pats deal was for more than $6MM/ but had slightly less guaranteed money and more incentives

In the end we wound up with a more dynamic and diverse receiver in Edelman. We also should have come to understand that it's the QB and offensive system were/are a big part of the success that comes from playing that position. By this point, I think we should all understand that given good health, if DA got the same number of looks that Julian got, he'd have 100 catches and 1100 yds. It's the nature of the position.

BTW- that isn't to say that I think DA is better than Edelman, but that DA is good enough to fill that role so the offense worked. Just like Troy Brown and Welker did, and any one of several similar type of smaller, quicker, tough WRs The position has become so embedded in the offense, that now it requires 2 players with right capabilities to cover for injury concerns. If we didn't have someone to run those "slot receiver" routes, we'd almost be in as big a problem as being without Gronk (and why Chandler is here)

Joker said:

lost his gamble? I thought he signed for LESS than the Pats offered?

edit: I looked it up. He played for a 9.5 million tag in 2012. TGhe Pats wouldn't tag him again because the tag would have risen to 11.5. He signed with Denver for 12 mil over 2 years.Never gave NE a chance to make an offer.

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If he had accepted the Patriots offer in 2012 instead of getting the franchise tag, he would have made more money over the next 3 years of his career with the Patriots.. and had a Super Bowl ring on his finger.. with about 3-4 less concussions on his resume from Duck Manning

PATS16N0 said:

I'm not a Welker fan anymore. I don't know when nostalgic Patriot fans are going to get it through their thick skulls that he went to a newly emerging -and short lived- Conference rival for the same money purely to stick it to us.

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Yeah it was a nasty separation but that was IIRC between BB and WW.

welker would have made more on the contract the patriots offered, and still had the opportunity at another 5+ million dollar deal with another team after it ended.
he absolutely made the wrong choice, and im glad he did because minitron is better and can play all over the field.

chasa said:

welker would have made more on the contract the patriots offered, and still had the opportunity at another 5+ million dollar deal with another team after it ended.
he absolutely made the wrong choice, and im glad he did because minitron is better and can play all over the field.

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Pats was 2/10 and up to $16m

Denver's was 2/12

TN had numbers similar to DEN

My personal feeling on Welker is pretty mixed. He left the Pats to play for our rivals and with Manning. For some reason, his leaving felt more like a betrayal than Vinatieri leaving did...can't explain it, but that's just how I feel.

As for what he did here, I don't know how people can denigrate that. He was a workhorse here that sometimes got stone fingers, and sometimes at the worst times (ugh...). He was one of the cornerstones of our offense and was on the team for some fun times.

But I'm satisfied overall. Edelbinkie has been nothing short of sensational replacing Welker, and as others have mentioned, he brings just a little bit more to his game.

Do I want Welker in a red jacket? I don't know, but he'd have to get in line behind other pass catchers Gronk, Moss, and Edelman let alone all the other players from the dynasty (Brady, Wilfork, Faulk, Light, and maybe even a few others I'd rather see in there than him).

Nikolai said:

My personal feeling on Welker is pretty mixed. He left the Pats to play for our rivals and with Manning. For some reason, his leaving felt more like a betrayal than Vinatieri leaving did...can't explain it, but that's just how I feel.

As for what he did here, I don't know how people can denigrate that. He was a workhorse here that sometimes got stone fingers, and sometimes at the worst times (ugh...). He was one of the cornerstones of our offense and was on the team for some fun times.

But I'm satisfied overall. Edelbinkie has been nothing short of sensational replacing Welker, and as others have mentioned, he brings just a little bit more to his game.

Do I want Welker in a red jacket? I don't know, but he'd have to get in line behind other pass catchers Gronk, Moss, and Edelman let alone all the other players from the dynasty (Brady, Wilfork, Faulk, Light, and maybe even a few others I'd rather see in there than him).

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To say that WW is behind Moss and JE11 in the Pats HoF receiving line is off base.

Keep in mind, the DEN offer had more guarantees.

What is he supposed to do?

robertweathers said:

To say that WW is behind Moss and JE11 in the Pats HoF receiving line is off base.

Keep in mind, the DEN offer had more guarantees.

What is he supposed to do?

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You might have a case with JE11 as his career still has a bit to go before we can call it. Put me down as someone who thinks he's going to surpass Wes's accomplishments here. It is what it is.

As for Moss...what he did in 3.5 years here was pretty stunning. Not only that, but even though I would say his exit was worse on the surface than Wes's, he's become one of the few defenders of the Pats and TFB during Defamegate. At least to me, how a former Pat (who went and played elsewhere) carries himself with regard to the franchise is part of the selection process (see McGinest). It's a reason I can't support Parcells for the PHOF. Some may call me close minded or whatnot, but it's just how I judge it. YMMV

Nikolai said:

You might have a case with JE11 as his career still has a bit to go before we can call it. Put me down as someone who thinks he's going to surpass Wes's accomplishments here. It is what it is.

As for Moss...what he did in 3.5 years here was pretty stunning. Not only that, but even though I would say his exit was worse on the surface than Wes's, he's become one of the few defenders of the Pats and TFB during Defamegate. At least to me, how a former Pat (who went and played elsewhere) carries himself with regard to the franchise is part of the selection process (see McGinest). It's a reason I can't support Parcells for the PHOF. Some may call me close minded or whatnot, but it's just how I judge it. YMMV

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Love JE11 as well but hes pushing 30. As it relates to catching WW, time is not on his side.

For Moss, he had 3 great years here. It did end badly but it seems both sides are ok.

Wes was pretty supportive of TB12. Maybe not as strong as Randy, though.

Wes got 2 years, $12 million and hung out to dry over the middle of the field against linebackers.

robertweathers said:

Love JE11 as well but hes pushing 30. As it relates to catching WW, time is not on his side.

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Sorta.

Julian Edelman has 296 rec, 3021 yds, and 16 TDs. He is 29.

When Welker was done with his season at 29 years old, his stats with the Pats were: 346 rec, 4,536, 22 TDs.

For Julian to keep pace (keep in mind this takes into account that he's already got three games worth of stats), he'd need to finish this season with: 80 rec, 1,794 yds, and 8 TDs. Obviously, he won't catch Welker in yards, but the rest is doable. At 80/1,974/8, he'd be starting his 30 year old season at the same place Welker did. I like Edelman's chances to have a longer career with Brady throwing him the ball, rather than Manning. You're right, though, that it's no slam dunk. I just think he can do it (except the yardage total).

For Moss, he had 3 great years here. It did end badly but it seems both sides are ok.

Wes was pretty supportive of TB12. Maybe not as strong as Randy, though.

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I didn't notice Welker said anything, so that's cool. Randy, though, is pretty effusive about his love of things Patriots. I'm not sure, but I suspect he considers himself a Pat more than a Viking.

Nikolai said:

Sorta.

Julian Edelman has 296 rec, 3021 yds, and 16 TDs. He is 29.

When Welker was done with his season at 29 years old, his stats with the Pats were: 346 rec, 4,536, 22 TDs.

For Julian to keep pace (keep in mind this takes into account that he's already got three games worth of stats), he'd need to finish this season with: 80 rec, 1,794 yds, and 8 TDs. Obviously, he won't catch Welker in yards, but the rest is doable. At 80/1,974/8, he'd be starting his 30 year old season at the same place Welker did. I like Edelman's chances to have a longer career with Brady throwing him the ball, rather than Manning. You're right, though, that it's no slam dunk. I just think he can do it (except the yardage total).

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Jules has a long way to go. He is in supreme physical condition. He does take a beating though- just like WW.

What I hate is that these discussions turn into a WW vs JE11. Its unfair to both players and to us fans. Quite frankly, they are different players. JE11 is more versatile and explosive and WW is more focused on the inside- which he has done better than anybody in NFL history.

My only point is that WW has had a better career (to this point) than JE11. If it was up to me, I'd want them both wearing red jackets. They deserve it.

robertweathers said:

Jules has a long way to go. He is in supreme physical condition. He does take a beating though- just like WW.

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He does, but I like his chances. We'll see.

What I hate is that these discussions turn into a WW vs JE11. Its unfair to both players and to us fans. Quite frankly, they are different players. JE11 is more versatile and explosive and WW is more focused on the inside- which he has done better than anybody in NFL history.

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I think it's natural to compare the two, given that they play very similar roles and one essentially replaced the other. I don't, for one minute, think Welker was anything less than a stellar WR here. And until someone DOES supplant him, he's the GOAT slot receiver in my mind. That I think Julian can eventually surpass isn't a knock on Welker, but a tip of the hat to Edelman. He's a hell of a talent.

My only point is that WW has had a better career (to this point) than JE11. If it was up to me, I'd want them both wearing red jackets. They deserve it.

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It's a shame Jules didn't get more action earlier, but it is what it is. As for the red jacket, it's tough for me. I suppose with an embarrassment of riches when it comes to deserving players, I feel like we can be more discerning, and one of the criteria I have is that post-playing relationship with the Pats. To me, him bolting for Denver alone is enough to make it a taller task. Maybe that's not fair, but that's just this one fan's opinion.

Nikolai said:

It's a shame Jules didn't get more action earlier

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BB is quoted as saying that the only reason JE11 didn't get more action was because of WW being here. The guy was an All-Pro so his snaps are justified. All the credit to JE11 for being patient and having the perseverance to see it through here.

I'd venture to say that if JE11 played during those WW years he'd have almost close to similar numbers every year 90/1000/5