Semi-OT: Brady v. Manning discursion

Fencer said:

My most vivid memories of his deep balls from the Moss years involve Moss making great adjustments to track down balls in flight.

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Your most vivid memories in any sport sport will be the difficult catches/throws/plays, and the clinching/controversial plays.

Fencer said:

My most vivid memories of his deep balls from the Moss years involve Moss making great adjustments to track down balls in flight.

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Well then you got terrible memories.

Reading that comment/article brought back memories. Some of you were around for this thread:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ore-skilled-than-brady-please-explain.248462/

Good times....

Brady has mastered the basics to a level that is unrivaled. QB sneaks, pocket movement, reading defenses, throwing motion, durability, and ball security. Brady also handles snaps from the center better than everyone else. You dont see snaps flying over his head or bobbling the ball on handoffs. Weather also doesnt affect him too much.

There is so much more but all of these little things add up to greatness. Manning is great but lets end that debate. Rodgers is close but he isnt durable. Concussions or calf etc.

These are like the guys they found in the pacific islands who thought WW2 was still going on.

In shrinking numbers you'll find them kicking around, mumbling "Manning, Manning, Omaha" under their breath. You still have guys from the 80's who insist Marino was the best QB of all time, and the guys from the 90's who insist Favre is the greatest.

People on that site are patting themselves on the back for their rationality, but the truth is not only is there is no rational argument, there's no rational Brady/Manning debate.

It's over

The last time it was even possible to debate was last year when the dreamers hoped that Manning would get another ring. Three rings vs two rings and they could attempt to make a case.

But not only did Manning get clobbered in epic fashion, but Brady came back the next year and beat the same defense with a 4th quarter comeback adding another ring.

It's done, there's no debate.

What separates Brady from everybody else who'se played QB is his ability to process information and make the right decisions with the ball, COMBINED with a competitiveness of a Russell, Jordan,
Earvin Johnson, or Larry Bird.

He is the best that has ever played the position. I say this as some who watched Unitas and Starr win their first championships.

My response:

Good write up. Just thought I'd add a few things to see where it might take the discussion.

* While it probably isn't surprising that Brady has a higher outdoor passer rating than Manning, he actually has a higher *indoor* passer rating as well. The reason Manning's career rating is higher than Brady's is because Peyton has played significantly more indoor games.

* Brady's Patriots are 15-7 when he throws 50 passes. The rest of the NFL combined in 100-386-6. Manning is 3-14, incidentally.

* In the playoffs, the Patriots are 4-1 when Brady throws 50 passes, the rest of the NFL is 3-27.

* Brady's Patriots are 42-41 when allowing 24 or more points and 12-18 when allowing 30 or more.

* Manning's teams are 44-66 when allowing 24 or more points and 13-38 when allowing 30 or more. If the terrible 1998 team is excluded, the records change to 43-55 and 13-33, respectively.

I determined these records by scrolling through past schedules. It is possible a mistake or two was made, but nothing more than a game or two in either direction. I also excluded any games where neither QB played significant snaps. The points allowed threshold is admittedly arbitrary, but was chosen with no foreknowledge of the results.

* Playoff results were similar, with Tom going 5-6 in games where the defense allowed 24 or more points and Manning at 3-7. When the defense allowed less than 24 points, Brady's playoff record is 16-2 and Manning's is 8-6.

I recognize that crediting quarterbacks with wins and losses can be a fool's errand. However, I think there is some value to this particular sets of data. When we are talking about being asked to "carry a team", lots of throws and lots of points allowed is a good place to start, and the results appear to belie the idea that Brady is asked to do less. You made some good points about the differences in system, but if that is the explanation, why don't more teams run it as well? What are the Patriots doing to take heat off Brady even when asking him to overcome a defensive meltdown? Isn't it possible that, rather than the system making it easy for Tom, it is built around his unique strengths?

I know this encroaches on ground covered in the *irrational* version of this discussion, but I am sincere in my hope to prompt legitimate dialog.

To sum up what I think OP means. Brady is only better now because Manning is getting old and his physical skills have declined. Brady was eased into playing despite taking over from an injured Bledsoe and winning a SB. Despite winning 2 more SB, the OP wasn't impressed with Brady until 2006. Brady has it easier and was luckier then Manning. Manning has been awesome since 2002 despite having less talent around him. Manning is not a choke artist because in the playoffs he is playing against better teams. He thinks Brady cheats. The 1st round picks for Indy weren't all that talented while Brady had Moss and Gronk to carry him.

Oh, well at least it's not a complete Manning ball wash, the OP does give Brady some credit.

I think it is clear that brady is the goat. Some of you might disagree me but i think the last 6 games (going back to 2014 playoffs) brady has mastered the game better than any qb in the history of the game. For alot of last year and even in the playoffs brady would play almost perfectly but have these bizarre lapses of judgements sometimes before the half that would keep teams in the game. This year i have seen no evidence of that. And even though he did it last year against bmore, the colts, and in the sb, his command of the game overcame those mistakes which in previous years i think we would have ended in a heartbreaking loss. This year i have seen no evidence of any of that.

When i watch aaron rogers play i am awed by his footwork, arm strength, and mobility but he is not even close in his ability to read defenses or make adjustments to tb. He constantly fails to recognize mismatches, he allows run plays that have no chance of succeeding to be ran instead of changing the play at the line. There are also times when he allows an open receiver to run himself into coverage because he is going through his progressions. All of this he can overcome cause he is so talented.

Brady on the other hand.. Waits patiently and seemingly capitolizes on every mismatch.. He checks out of bad plays.. And he almost never sems caught of guard. The level at which tb is playing this year has never been matched. He is in full f@cking control of every aspect of the game. If this level of play continues it will set the bar of what every qb will strive to become. Imo this year tom brady is playing the game in a way no one has ever seen. And hes 38. Just so you dont think im completely delusional.. I do think his accuracy downfield has tailed of a bit due to age.

Deus Irae said:

Your most vivid memories in any sport sport will be the difficult catches/throws/plays, and the clinching/controversial plays.

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Fair enough.

The guy throughout the piece is biting his tongue not to say that basically Brady is a game manager. What a tool.

I stopped when he said Brady came in to a perfect situation..

No he didn't. Brady was never guaranteed a roster spot, much less winning the starting job over a QB that just got a $100M contract. Not to mention, he took over a team that went 5-11 the year before, and started off the season 0-2 ....

AzorianPats said:

I stopped when he said Brady came in to a perfect situation..

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The moment people use that in a Brady v. other QB comparison, you know they're going to be dishonest. Brady came into a situation where his coach was probably going to be on one hell of a hot seat at the end of a second consecutive losing season, if the starting QB doesn't get hurt.

Pre-Brady
5-11
0-2
= 5-13

Immediate Brady results
11-3

Deus Irae said:

Reading that comment/article brought back memories. Some of you were around for this thread:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ore-skilled-than-brady-please-explain.248462/

Good times....

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You asked "What skills does Manning have that are superior to Brady's, and what is the evidence for the claim? "

And the forum clearly answered.


@jmt57

He is more skilled at letting everybody know he might be calling an audible.

He is more skilled at growing a forehead.

He is more skilled on SNL skits.

He is more skilled at Oreo licking competitions.

He is more skilled in communicating to the media that it was the offensive line's fault.

He is more skilled at Riverdance impersonations when there is pocket pressure.

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Oswlek said:

FWIW, that's just one comment among many from several different members in this week's DVOA write up.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-ratings/2015/week-3-dvoa-ratings?page=1

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One guy said this:

Brady once said - he tried to run Manning's style, but it was too much. Instead, he "settled" for being coachable.

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Anyone ever heard that, because I'm pretty sure he made it up.

Re: Week 3 DVOA Ratings
by Dave :: Thu, 10/01/2015 - 1:07pm
I think you could get a good feel for New England's offense without ever really seeing it at all, actually. Just scout yourself, be honest about your weaknesses, decide how you'd attack it if it was your offense, and then assume that the Patriots are going to do that and do it very very well without mistakes.

It isn't rocket science. It boggles my mind that every other coach is so stubborn as to just "establish the run" against top run defenses or even poor ones that are playing unusually well... (and I have a feeling that there's a better than even chance that the Colts spend the entire week leading in to Week 6 fixated on stopping the run... when it's obvious to any thinker that the Patriots are going to come out and attack the middle of the field in the passing game because the Colts are so weak in coverage there. Brady could throw for 500 yards in that game. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even run any running plays.)

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Figure out your own weaknesses on defense, and just stop the Patriots' offense from exploiting them. Brilliant. Why haven't any head coaches thought of this strategy before?

Bobsyouruncle said:

One guy said this:



Anyone ever heard that, because I'm pretty sure he made it up.

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I'm reading Collision Low Crossers right now (It's about the 2011 Jets, which makes it enjoyable knowing how things worked out for them. There's a lot of interesting information about the NFL, in general.) There is a section in there where the author talks about how the Colts offense under Manning was not extremely complicated. The Indianapolis coaches would get frustrated when Manning would go to the Pro Bowl, talk with other coaches and QBs, come back with suggestions to add to the Colts playbook, and they'd have to convince him to stick with what worked for them.

Ugh…

If Peyton was with Belichick we would probably only have one Superbowl win… Maybe none.
Peyton would of choked in the big games and we wouldn't have any hardware.

I know Peyton wouldn't of beaten the Rams, I know he wouldn't of beaten the Eagles.

Maybe he would have pulled one out against the Panthers….

He definitely wouldn't of beaten the Seahawks.

Honestly, I think he would of only beaten Rex Grossman. Only Superbowl a hypothetical Belichick/Peyton Patriots team win is in 2006, same year the Colts won.

And we probably would have needed a "face-guarding" call along the way

PATS16N0 said:

Ugh…

If Peyton was with Belichick we would probably only have one Superbowl win… Maybe none.
Peyton would of choked in the big games and we wouldn't have any hardware.

I know Peyton wouldn't of beaten the Rams, I know he wouldn't of beaten the Eagles.

Maybe he would have pulled one out against the Panthers….

He definitely wouldn't of beaten the Seahawks.

Honestly, I think he would of only beaten Rex Grossman. Only Superbowl a hypothetical Belichick/Peyton Patriots team win is in 2006, same year the Colts won.

And we probably would have needed a "face-guarding" call along the way

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A Peyton/BB team could'v never played the Rams in the SB because Peyton would'v got us bounced in the snow game. It would have been an embarrassing loss due to multiple INTs.

Gotta love the people that say Manning would have 10 rings if he were our QB, how's he going to do that throwing to subpar weapons in crappy NE weather? That early dynasty would have never happened with pickle head imo. I agree maybe 1 ring but that's it....

I don't think he'd enjoy playing for BB, BB wouldn't surround him with the super weapons he demands and I think that would get to him.