Key Date: February 20, 2014: Mike Lombardi Joins Patriots Front Office

VrabelJr said:

Since 2010 we've been absolutely killing it in the draft.

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I agree about the college drafts (which may not be Lombardi's strength). What jumps out are the in-season trades and the FA pickups of pro players the past two years. They have been incredible.

In addition, that PS is stocked with game experienced players in a way I haven't seen before. This team looks deeper than ever before. Whether or not that is Lombardi's influence, I have no idea. However, it is worth discussing.

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shmessy said:

I hear ya, Oz. But it was 13 months. He was basically fighting tooth and nail with Joe Banner the minute he took the job.

I'll accept the "it was partly said in jest" part. Sorry if you felt I mischaracterized your post.

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Fair enough, but a similar amount of time here doesn't say that much either, particularly when you are talking about one of the 5 best FOs in the past decade with or without Lombardi.

Had you simply said, "look at all the good decisions made since Lombardi arrived!" I wouldn't have argued against it. It is the "save Bill from himself" characterization I objected to, especially when none of us has any idea how involved Mike was in those decisions.

In my opinion there are a LOT of guys who Bill entrusts with personnel decisions in many different areas, from pro to college. However in the end the way the organization is structured, that the buck stops with BB. Thus he gets either all the credit or subsequently all the blame.

That being said, I believe the most of scouting work, both in FA and the draft is being done by people other than Bill. But he knows that all the people who do the scouting are people trained in what HE is looking for in a player, both physically and mentally. They all understand the kind of athletes he is looking for based on the needs he sees the team having in the upcoming years.

So that's why when the Pats lay out their draft board they have the one with the fewest players on it. It's probably why they make some of the oddest reaches in the 2-3rd rounds, but why they makes such sound choices in the first round. We also should remember that the Pats have been picking at the end of EVERY round for the last 15 years. I think they are averaging 28th since 2001. If you dwell on it, that is an enormous disadvantage the Pats have had to overcome and still maintain their excellence. It's even more spectacular if you think that while the Pats have drafted many fine players in the BB era, only THREE have been picks you can consider exceptional. Brady, Seymour, and Gronk. That small number just proves how the overall quality the rest of the players have been, ths so called JAG's. Also it says a lot about how well the Pats do in developing anc coaching the players who do wind up here

Think about it. The rest of the league has gotten 150 top ten draft picks in the last 15 years and the Pats got to pick just ONE of them (Richard Seymouir) and that was 15 years ago. So BB may have made his share of draft mistakes or FA mistakes, but it is safe to say that he's made many fewer than anyone else and his share of "finds" have been more numerous.

With complicated decisions, the more smart people in a room, the better. BB and his scouts did fine before Lombardi, but they are that much smarter with Lombardi.

shmessy said:

From Post #1:

"I'm not saying "yes" or "no", but the roster moves of the past two years most definitely seem to have been more successful than anything post-Pioli."

It is what it is. The words are pretty clear.

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Yes the words are very clear, particularly

Given the stocking of the Patriots roster the past two years - - is Mike Lombardi the guy who saved Belichick the Coach from Belichick the GM?

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Qualifying with, essentially, 'maybe not' doesn't change the point you were attempting to make.
Further backing down from it appears to indicate you got my point, and are now distancing yourself from your mistake. That is fine.

Here's what we know: at the very least, the in-season moves last year were terrific. The feeling about the moves this week are pretty good too.

Whoever gets the exact credit or whatever, is seems like the current group of personnel managers are working pretty well & successfully together. So whoever does what, it seems like a good situation right now.

Thought BB the GM was pretty good for a lot of years, there were some draft issues but overall when you look at the body of work, 31 other teams are jealous of our success...

Also have Nick Caserio behind the scenes, Lombardi is well connected to many teams and can probably get some backroom information..

When you put together BB, Caserio, Lombardi and Ernie Adams that is a lot of very smart football people who are all making these decisions..

Oswlek said:

Judging by the Browns' success under Lombardi, I'm going to say, "no."

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Was BB as successful on the Browns?

AndyJohnson said:

Yes the words are very clear, particularly



Qualifying with, essentially, 'maybe not' doesn't change the point you were attempting to make.
Further backing down from it appears to indicate you got my point, and are now distancing yourself from your mistake. That is fine.

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You are hilarious following me around all the time. But you evidently didn't notice the question mark at the end. Thread is intended to spark conversation.

Asking a question is not the equivalent of making a statement. Most can understand that.

I honestly do not know the answer to the question and am inviting people's opinions. Lots of good input from lots of posters. That's what this website is all about.

Glad you are participating!

letekro said:

With complicated decisions, the more smart people in a room, the better. BB and his scouts did fine before Lombardi, but they are that much smarter with Lombardi.

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I couldn't agree with you more.

As an aside, the point is absolutely NOT "Lombardi deserves credit for the recent success instead of BB". Of course not. If a manager puts together a successful team that is highly effective, who deserves the lion's share of the credit? Obviously, it is the manager that put together the team and oversees its success.

Everyone knows BB makes the final decisions. To BB's credit, he is a good enough people manager to bring in other smart people into the decision making process. Who is responsible for the success of that smart team? BB of course, he put together that team, he oversees it, and deserves the lion's share of the credit.

zydecochris said:

I couldn't agree with you more.

As an aside, the point is absolutely NOT "Lombardi deserves credit for the recent success instead of BB". Of course not. If a manager puts together a successful team that is highly effective, who deserves the lion's share of the credit? Obviously, it is the manager that put together the team and oversees its success.

Everyone knows BB makes the final decisions. To BB's credit, he is a good enough people manager to bring in other smart people into the decision making process. Who is responsible for the success of that smart team? BB of course, he put together that team, he oversees it, and deserves the lion's share of the credit.

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Great post. What i continually find great about BBs managerial skills is his love of dissenting opinions from his coaches. He is comfortable in his own skin. That "Do Your Job" documentary was just the latest where that was emphasized. I'm sure he has a healthy ego, but he never lets it get in the way of doing his job.

shmessy said:

You are hilarious following me around all the time. But you evidently didn't notice the question mark at the end. Thread is intended to spark conversation.

Asking a question is not the equivalent of making a statement. Most can understand that.

I honestly do not know the answer to the question and am inviting people's opinions. Lots of good input from lots of posters. That's what this website is all about.

Glad you are participating!

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Follow you around...lol.
Not my fault you make poor posts that require comment.

Perhaps you should not be so emotional about discussions on a message board. Nice to see my approval is so important to you though.

deters said:

He has been very instrumental and and an excellent addition. Browns were dumb for firing him. Don't think a player he has recommended has been a disappointment so far.

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How do you know who Lombardi has recommended? Not being sarcastic, just wondering if the information is out there.

shmessy said:

Given the stocking of the Patriots roster the past two years - - is Mike Lombardi the guy who saved Belichick the Coach from Belichick the GM?

I'm not saying "yes" or "no", but the roster moves of the past two years most definitely seem to have been more successful than anything post-Pioli.

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I think that Lombardi is a significant (trusted) asset that allows Belichick to spend more time on other aspects of his responsibilities.

I've come to the realization that the last few seasons the Patriots have been conducting something of a midseason supplementary draft through the trade market.

2012 CB Aqib Talib, 4th Round Pick (Received a 3rd round Comp pick when he left)
2013, DT Isaac Sopoaga, Trading back from 5th to 6th
2014, DE Akeem Ayers, Trading back from 6th to 7th (Received a 7th round Comp pick when he left)
2014, LB Jonathan Casillas, Trading back from 5th to 6th (Received a 6th round Comp pick when he left)
2015, LB Jon Bostic, 6th round pick
2015, DT Akiem Hicks for Hooman

I think you can argue that Talib and Sopoaga were meant to address real roster holes for their seasons. Ayers helped us bridge Chandler Jones' injury last year, but Casillas seems more like a luxury. Both Ayers and Casillas moves netted three assets for one not so great asset: Two lesser picks and a player rental for one lower round pick. The 2015 moves seem to be for young players that are meant to stick around a bit, getting player with 2nd and 3rd round value who haven't worked out for very small investments. They don't seem to address immediate needs, but they're young with upside and cost-controlled. It'd be nice if a starting caliber CB could be gotten this way, but these were the ones available for this cost.

So whoever came up with the idea, it seems the Patriots have identified a market inefficiency. Midway through every season some talented players have become expendable/are in the doghouse and can be had very cheap. It may be that we can expect a couple of these trades every year from now on until the rest of the league catches on or Goodell outlaws it. Whatever happens first.

shmessy said:

I hear ya, Oz. But it was 13 months. He was basically fighting tooth and nail with Joe Banner the minute he took the job.

I'll accept the "it was partly said in jest" part. Sorry if you felt I mischaracterized your post.

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Exactly. Joe Banner, Rob Chudzinski and Jimmy Haslam. Cleveland was a clown show when Lombardi was there.

It's tough to know how much influence Lombardi has in New England, but they are Super Bowl champions and the fourth youngest team in the NFL.

Hire a Lombardi... Win a Lombardi...

Coincidence? I think not.

Been thinking about this since the subject came up and view it as some sort of report card... he gets A's in team building, D/O scheming, getting the best out of players, dealing with adversity, keeping his team focused, preparation for every scenario etc. etc.

He got a B for drafting, and have to put some of that on Pioli when he was here.. however recently this grade has moved to a B+ is that due to Lombari's presence, Nick Caserio's emergence or Pioli leaving?? We do not know all the inner workings of the current brain trust, but it has improved and that is all that seems important.

Do not want to lionize BB, but considering all he does and all he does exceptionally well will take a B or B+ in this area...

Didn't NY Giants GM Ernie Acorsi assist BB with NEP drafts and FA after he left the Giants in 2007?

I know that I read Acorsi was with the Pats someplace.

Oswlek said:

Judging by the Browns' success under Lombardi, I'm going to say, "no."

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What success have the Browns ever had?

A franchise that fired Bill Belichick. A franchise that picks in the top 5 every NFL draft.