Gronk/Edelman vs. Moss/Welker

Fencer · Sep 26, 2015

Bobsyouruncle said:
Gronk's had 68 yards and 1 TD in the SB. Moss had 62 yards and 1 TD in 2007.

And thus Gronk was more productive, because he blocked a lot more than Moss ...

... unless Moss drew double coverage away from other players more often than Gronk did.

Galeb · Sep 26, 2015

Bruins29 said:
I have a question. You say JE was a superior punt returner compared to WW.

JE career punt return average is 133 returns for 12.2 AVG 4 TDs
WW is 262 returns at 9.8 AVG zero TDs.
Keeping in mind that WW was returning punts at age 30-33 stats so that should bring his avg down a bit.

So lets adjust that. WW numbers age 23-29 208 returns 10 yard avg.

So JE has him by 2.2 yards and 4 TDs. Ok, I guess that is "superior". I can live with that. WW was a great punt returner so its no shame when anyone is compared to him.

Lets look at receiving numbers.

Games with Brady as staring WR
JE 32
WW 93

Receptions
JE 219
WW 765

WW receptions VS JE at same ages (2013 and 2014 JE seasons)

JE 197
WW 223

Same for yards
JE 2028 on 285 targets 7.11 avg
WW 2513 on 311 targets 8.08 avg

TD
JE 10
WW 7

Yards per game

WW 84.5
JE 67.7

WW career yards per game 58.8
JE 36.7

Adjusted so that we only use JE as starter 2014 to present
Yards per game avg
JE 77.4
WW numbers for same time period in career 84.6

So, while you did say JE is not there yet as a WR as Edelman there are many here that continue to proclaim that JE is a much better WR than WW. I am trying to use every type of number/year configuration to help give JE a fair comparison or even edge to WW. I just cant make it happen.

FYI I am a huge JE fan. loved him the moment he came here. And when the whole board went into meltdown mode when WW left I was one of the posters trying to calm everyone down constantly posting that JE will be a fine replacement probably even better in some ways. Go look it up. I saw him in that Ravens game in 09 and knew we had something special.

I'm not sure what your question is, but I'll try to clarify anyway. WW was a more productive as a Patriot than JE so far. That said, NE got Welker after he'd been in the league a few years, and as he started peaking. JE hadn't played WR before being drafted, and is still improving. If he stays healthy for a few more years, he may eventually equal WW's annual production, but that is far from a given. All that said, if your defense can nail down the middle of the field, WW loses his usefulness. I'll take JE's marginally less production (at this time) at WR for the flexibility, punt returning, locker room presence, clutchness and better blocking that JE brings.

Oswlek · Sep 26, 2015

I'm just thankful we can have a debate like this in a span of less than a decade.

Fencer · Sep 26, 2015

I think Edelman is now capable of the kind of consistent production Welker provided -- a little less amazing at getting open, a little more amazing after the catch, a significantly greater catch radius.

As a receiver outside the red zone I take Moss over Gronk, because of how well he adapted to the deep ball in flight.

As a receiver in the red zone I take Gronk, for the amazing catch radius.

As blockers -- well, that's an enormous edge for Gronk, and a moderate one for Edelman.

Durability -- Moss/Welker get the nod.

VrabelJr · Sep 26, 2015

It's a tough choice but I say Gronk/Edelman and the reason is versatility. Moss and Welker were specialists. Moss and are Welker are GOAT potential at going deep and playing the slot respectively. Edelman and Gronk can come inside, go outside, go up the seam or up the sideline..

wolverinejoe80 · Sep 26, 2015

imagine we had moss, welker, gronk, jules all together.

oh my.

ivanvamp · Sep 26, 2015

KontradictioN said:
I'd go with the combo that holds the hardware. And that's basically the tie breaker because this is just too close to call. Moss and Welker were a record setting combo that was a fluke helmet catch and a dropped INT way from finishing 19-0.

I'd say the degree of difficulty for the Asante Samuel interception was in the same ballpark as the Malcolm Butler play. Samuel was all alone, but the throw was high. It would have been a very nice - not extraordinarily difficult, but very nice - interception. Butler read the play perfectly but endured a very hard collision as he grabbed the ball and held on.

So if Samuel makes his catch and Butler doesn't, the 2007-08 team not only goes down as the greatest team in Patriots' history, but the greatest team in NFL history. And Moss/Welker have their place among the all-time pantheon of WR combos. Meanwhile, if Butler doesn't make the catch and the Seahawks score, Edelman/Gronk still don't have a SB title and the 2014-15 Patriots go down as a nice team that came up a bit short.

In both cases, the offense drove down the field for a go-ahead touchdown with just over two minutes left in the game, and both times the ultimate determining factor was the defense either making or not making a play.

VrabelJr · Sep 26, 2015

wolverinejoe80 said:
imagine we had moss, welker, gronk, jules all together.

oh my.

In 2010 we did for a couple weeks! Gronk and Edelman just weren't what they are now yet.

wolverinejoe80 · Sep 26, 2015

VrabelJr said:
In 2010 we did for a couple weeks! Gronk and Edelman just weren't what they are now yet.

yeah, just a bad timing.

randomk1 · Sep 26, 2015

It's not even close imho

It's Gronk and Edelman. Both of them are far more complete players than their counterparts.

Tunescribe · Sep 26, 2015

FourierSeries said:
Moss/Welker were failures.

farn · Sep 26, 2015

One duo is a champ. Game over. All I care about is the ring. Stats are for losers.

aluminum seats · Sep 26, 2015

Recency bias would lead me to say Gronk and Edelman, along with the fact that Moss did not have the diversity in his game that Gronk does.

On the flipside, Moss was such a receiving freak of nature.

Ice_Ice_Brady · Sep 26, 2015

I just feel like Gronk and Edelman are physically tougher and harder to jam/beat up, and therefore they tend to play better in hostile environments against good, physical defenses. The knock on Moss was always that, take away his post route, and there's little else he can do, even though he was far and away the best deep WR of all-time. Welker was often beaten up in the playoffs. It is very, very tough to push Edelman and Gronk off their respective games because they are just strong and don't get pushed around. So, I give them the edge by a hair over Moss and Welker, who are better when at their best but could more easily get contained with the game on the line.

Brewskies · Sep 26, 2015

Good news we had Welker and Moss and now we have Edelman and Gronk doesn't get much better than that.

Go Pats

Bruins29 · Sep 26, 2015

And before we had Brown/Branch so we were already spoiled with high expectations.

Bobsyouruncle · Sep 26, 2015

farn said:
One duo is a champ. Game over. All I care about is the ring. Stats are for losers.

Then Brown and Branch are better. Both have multiple SBs. Edelman and Gronk just had their second only winning one.

Bruins29 · Sep 26, 2015

Bobsyouruncle said:
Then Brown and Branch are better. Both have multiple SBs. Edelman and Gronk just had their second only winning one.

Of course they are. Its not even debatable. I hope that Gronk/JE get there because that means we have a couple more rings.

VrabelJr · Sep 26, 2015

farn said:
One duo is a champ. Game over. All I care about is the ring. Stats are for losers.

The funny thing about stats and counting rings....

TommyD4207 · Sep 26, 2015

Fencer said:
And thus Gronk was more productive, because he blocked a lot more than Moss ...

... unless Moss drew double coverage away from other players more often than Gronk did.

It's tough to quantify, because they played different positions, but don't sleep on Moss as a blocker. When he was motivated, he was LaFell-esque out there.

Gronk/Edelman vs. Moss/Welker

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