Gronk/Edelman vs. Moss/Welker

mgteich said:

We all have our preferences for current players, especially in the first two games of a Super Bowl season. We all believe that the GREAT player won Super Bowls. So, for these folks, Dilfer was a GREAT quarterback and Kelly was a failure.

For me, Moss was one of the two best receivers of all time, and showed it over many, many years. Welker was one of the best slot receivers of all time, and showed it over many, many years. For me, the choice is an easy one: Moss and Welker.

Our great team, the best in the NFL, doesn't have a downfield threat. Of course, we can score touchdowns and great plays and win Super Bowls without a #1 WR who can instantly score a touchdown from anywhere on the field. We have had the discussion of downfield receiver for years. Is LaFell that guy? Is Dobson? Is Amendola (see THE catch). Shouldn't we have acquired such a player? MOSS was the best ever in that role.

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We are building a team, not collecting talent.

Would you really rather have the deep threat that Moss provided than that fourth ring?

Even if Moss and Welker in '07 were better than Gronk and Edelman are this year, I'll take the hardware any day. Brady and Belichick have proven that at the end of the day (and the season), we don't need Moss or Welker.

@Patriots: SAT STAT: @Edelman11 can become 1st player in history to start a season w/ 3 straight games w/ 10 or more catches. http://t.co/RPqoBiyr42

FourierSeries said:

Gronk and Edelman would have helped the team score more than an embarrassing 14 and 17 points.

The offense we have now is a much better matchup against either of those Giants teams.

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It's not as simple as that though. For one, Brady was clearly injured in the 07 SB. He was in a walking boot the week before the game. That has a big impact that is never really discussed. Second, Josh called a horrible game. The Giants D line owned our O line that game and Brady had no time at all. Should of been a lot of hurry up to slow them down with short passes to Welker. If I remember correctly Welker actually played pretty well that game and they started to move the ball well later in the game. If they could have worn out that D line sooner the deep passes to Moss would have opened up more in the 2nd half.

Moss and Gronk are both all world talents. 2 of the best ever at their positions. I like Edelman a bit better then Welker as he's tougher and better big game performer, although Welker was one of the best ever at the slot position.

For me in 2015 I will go with Gronk/Edelman. It suits where Brady is right now. Get the ball out quick and move the chains. His deep ball isn't as good as it used to be but he is clearly so comfortable right now with this group we don't need a big down field receiver. A few shots a game to keep the D honest and that's fine. In 2007 though I'd take Moss and Welker. Brady's deep ball was better and with Welker in the slot that to me was the best O I've ever seen. To bad we didn't have Brady with Moss in his prime a few more years. If we had Moss in '06 Brady has 5 rings right now.

winners always gets to write history, so gronk and edelman wins it hands down in my opinion.

Galeb said:

How many first downs did each have? How many pancakes did each make? Yards and TDs don't tell the whole story for a WR, nevermind a TE that blocks well.

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Moss had 5 catches, 4 first downs and a TD.

Gronk had 6 catches, 4 first downs and a TD, and one that was not a first down (2 yards)

Moss wasn't on the team for the last SB loss. Gronk was, but obviously not 100%.

Brady6 said:

Personally, I think this is a no brainier. Edelman and Gronkowski are much better, because they're both more complete players who bring much more than Moss and Welker brought to the table. Moss was a great outside WR and Welker was a great slot WR, they didn't offer the dimensions and different ways to beat a defense. Edelman and Gronkowski can be used as chess pieces. Also Edelman is a great punt returner, better blocker and can work out of the backfield, and Gronkowski is the best blocking TE in the NFL and the most impressing offensive player in the NFL.

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I think it is clearly Edelman and Gronk, partly because of what Brady6 said, they are much more versatile: Gronk is a crushing blocker even apart from his receptions, and Edelman is a terrific punt returner.

Also, although this is more difficult to quantify, in my opinion Edelman and Gronk were much better in the clutch. Moss in particular had a poor playoffs in 2007, in each of the first two playoff games he had only one reception (for 14 and then 18 yards), and in the Superbowl he had a modest 5 receptions for 62 yards bringing his total for three games to 94 yards and 1 TD. Welker was much better in those playoffs, with 213 yards and 2 TD's.

In contrast, the Edelman Gronk combo was very consistent through last year's 3-game playoff series, with Edelman having 281 yards and 1 TD, and Gronk 204 yards and 3 TD's. Together, Edelman and Gronk had about 60 % more yards and 1 more TD in the playoffs than Moss and Welker.

Moss and Welker set all sorts of records in the regular season, but Moss in particular mostly vanished in the playoffs. That (and their greater versatility vis-a-vis blocking, etc.) is why Gronk and Edelman are the greater of the two, to me it is a clear choice.

Galeb said:

When it's all done, Edelman may* not have been quite the slot receiver that Welker's been, but he's more versatile, much better on the outside, a superior punt returner, more clutch and a much better locker room guy than Welker ever was.

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I have a question. You say JE was a superior punt returner compared to WW.

JE career punt return average is 133 returns for 12.2 AVG 4 TDs
WW is 262 returns at 9.8 AVG zero TDs.
Keeping in mind that WW was returning punts at age 30-33 stats so that should bring his avg down a bit.

So lets adjust that. WW numbers age 23-29 208 returns 10 yard avg.

So JE has him by 2.2 yards and 4 TDs. Ok, I guess that is "superior". I can live with that. WW was a great punt returner so its no shame when anyone is compared to him.

Lets look at receiving numbers.

Games with Brady as staring WR
JE 32
WW 93

Receptions
JE 219
WW 765

WW receptions VS JE at same ages (2013 and 2014 JE seasons)

JE 197
WW 223

Same for yards
JE 2028 on 285 targets 7.11 avg
WW 2513 on 311 targets 8.08 avg

TD
JE 10
WW 7

Yards per game

WW 84.5
JE 67.7

WW career yards per game 58.8
JE 36.7

Adjusted so that we only use JE as starter 2014 to present
Yards per game avg
JE 77.4
WW numbers for same time period in career 84.6

So, while you did say JE is not there yet as a WR as Edelman there are many here that continue to proclaim that JE is a much better WR than WW. I am trying to use every type of number/year configuration to help give JE a fair comparison or even edge to WW. I just cant make it happen.

FYI I am a huge JE fan. loved him the moment he came here. And when the whole board went into meltdown mode when WW left I was one of the posters trying to calm everyone down constantly posting that JE will be a fine replacement probably even better in some ways. Go look it up. I saw him in that Ravens game in 09 and knew we had something special.

mgteich said:

We all have our preferences for current players, especially in the first two games of a Super Bowl season. We all believe that the GREAT player won Super Bowls. So, for these folks, Dilfer was a GREAT quarterback and Kelly was a failure.

For me, Moss was one of the two best receivers of all time, and showed it over many, many years. Welker was one of the best slot receivers of all time, and showed it over many, many years. For me, the choice is an easy one: Moss and Welker.

Our great team, the best in the NFL, doesn't have a downfield threat. Of course, we can score touchdowns and great plays and win Super Bowls without a #1 WR who can instantly score a touchdown from anywhere on the field. We have had the discussion of downfield receiver for years. Is LaFell that guy? Is Dobson? Is Amendola (see THE catch). Shouldn't we have acquired such a player? MOSS was the best ever in that role.

Click to expand...

mgteich said:

We all have our preferences for current players, especially in the first two games of a Super Bowl season. We all believe that the GREAT player won Super Bowls. So, for these folks, Dilfer was a GREAT quarterback and Kelly was a failure.

For me, Moss was one of the two best receivers of all time, and showed it over many, many years. Welker was one of the best slot receivers of all time, and showed it over many, many years. For me, the choice is an easy one: Moss and Welker.

Our great team, the best in the NFL, doesn't have a downfield threat. Of course, we can score touchdowns and great plays and win Super Bowls without a #1 WR who can instantly score a touchdown from anywhere on the field. We have had the discussion of downfield receiver for years. Is LaFell that guy? Is Dobson? Is Amendola (see THE catch). Shouldn't we have acquired such a player? MOSS was the best ever in that role.

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Reggie Wayne is the best WR to win a SB in the past 10 years, Jordy Nelson is the only other top WR to win one during that time and that was before he was even a notable player.

How'd Welker do at DB?

Bonzo said:

How'd Welker do at DB?

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And that is why (as mentioned) I would take Brown Branch/Givens all day over all of it. More clutch, more hardware, more diversity. They lost to better teams and never ever needed their D to bail them out. They went out and got it done.

Troy Brown was JE and then went out and became Revis when they needed a CB .

Bruins29 said:

I have a question. You say JE was a superior punt returner compared to WW.

JE career punt return average is 133 returns for 12.2 AVG 4 TDs
WW is 262 returns at 9.8 AVG zero TDs.
Keeping in mind that WW was returning punts at age 30-33 stats so that should bring his avg down a bit.

So lets adjust that. WW numbers age 23-29 208 returns 10 yard avg.

So JE has him by 2.2 yards and 4 TDs. Ok, I guess that is "superior". I can live with that. WW was a great punt returner so its no shame when anyone is compared to him.

Lets look at receiving numbers.

Games with Brady as staring WR
JE 32
WW 93

Receptions
JE 219
WW 765

WW receptions VS JE at same ages (2013 and 2014 JE seasons)

JE 197
WW 223

Same for yards
JE 2028 on 285 targets 7.11 avg
WW 2513 on 311 targets 8.08 avg

TD
JE 10
WW 7

Yards per game

WW 84.5
JE 67.7

WW career yards per game 58.8
JE 36.7

Adjusted so that we only use JE as starter 2014 to present
Yards per game avg
JE 77.4
WW numbers for same time period in career 84.6

So, while you did say JE is not there yet as a WR as Edelman there are many here that continue to proclaim that JE is a much better WR than WW. I am trying to use every type of number/year configuration to help give JE a fair comparison or even edge to WW. I just cant make it happen.

FYI I am a huge JE fan. loved him the moment he came here. And when the whole board went into meltdown mode when WW left I was one of the posters trying to calm everyone down constantly posting that JE will be a fine replacement probably even better in some ways. Go look it up. I saw him in that Ravens game in 09 and knew we had something special.

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One thing to consider is Welker was a crutch for Brady in a way that Edelman never has been and never will be.

My gut was Moss/WW but upon further review the very reason we now have Gronk/E is because BB himself basically deemed the combo a failure, once he (then more importantly others) realized they possessed a single fatal flaw, an Achilles heal on the giant if u will, and could be game-planned against without defensive overload thus nullifying their combined offensive advantage.

Elijah said:

One thing to consider is Welker was a crutch for Brady in a way that Edelman never has been and never will be.

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I hope not. I want the guy to make it to the playoffs healthy not be a mess after 16 games of pounding.

I like Gronk/Edelman more and the reason is cause they are more consistent. Moss/Welker can poor it on more against the lower level teams than Gronk/Edelman can (mostly cause of Moss). But against the higher level of competition I think Gronk/Edelman have proven to be more reliable and able to consistly put up 20-30 no matter who we are against.

However I don't think Gronk/Edelman is a formula that will allow you to put up 50 much no matter who you play cause it is not really built to be quick strike. More clock consuming and methodical and making sure to capitalize on the red zone chances you do get.

prime moss / prime healthy welker vs. prime gronk / prime jules

that's the fair question.


it's very close IMO. if we had moss from 2005-2007 he would've had 3 consecutive years of 20tds.


i'll flip a coin. if we had prime moss and welker last year instead of gronk/jules, i'm certain we would've also won the SB.

Moss, Gronk and Edelman

Hard to put into perspective.

Moss/Welker had their first year with the Patriots in 2007. Welker was amazing that he picked up the offense so quickly and Moss, well he was what he was and it was pretty great. By the end of the year, teams were getting a little bit smarter on how to play them as they had more film.

Edleman and Gronk have been in the system for quite some time and teams are still having trouble finding ways to stop them, but they do need some more pieces whereas Welker/Moss were the show.

I'd say Welker & Moss had that electric year and it's a darn shame 2008 was taken away as it might have given us another look at those guys together. At the end of the day, I'll have to go with the SB win and hopefully 1+ more.

Bruins29 said:

I have a question. You say JE was a superior punt returner compared to WW.

JE career punt return average is 133 returns for 12.2 AVG 4 TDs
WW is 262 returns at 9.8 AVG zero TDs.
Keeping in mind that WW was returning punts at age 30-33 stats so that should bring his avg down a bit.

So lets adjust that. WW numbers age 23-29 208 returns 10 yard avg.

So JE has him by 2.2 yards and 4 TDs. Ok, I guess that is "superior". I can live with that. WW was a great punt returner so its no shame when anyone is compared to him.

Lets look at receiving numbers.

Games with Brady as staring WR
JE 32
WW 93

Receptions
JE 219
WW 765

WW receptions VS JE at same ages (2013 and 2014 JE seasons)

JE 197
WW 223

Same for yards
JE 2028 on 285 targets 7.11 avg
WW 2513 on 311 targets 8.08 avg

TD
JE 10
WW 7

Yards per game

WW 84.5
JE 67.7

WW career yards per game 58.8
JE 36.7

Adjusted so that we only use JE as starter 2014 to present
Yards per game avg
JE 77.4
WW numbers for same time period in career 84.6

So, while you did say JE is not there yet as a WR as Edelman there are many here that continue to proclaim that JE is a much better WR than WW. I am trying to use every type of number/year configuration to help give JE a fair comparison or even edge to WW. I just cant make it happen.

FYI I am a huge JE fan. loved him the moment he came here. And when the whole board went into meltdown mode when WW left I was one of the posters trying to calm everyone down constantly posting that JE will be a fine replacement probably even better in some ways. Go look it up. I saw him in that Ravens game in 09 and knew we had something special.

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you really can't compare stats like that. edelman came into his own 2 years ago. it took him a while. i would say fair comparison would be 2007-2010 welker vs. 2013-2016 jules.

and it will be close stat wise. jules will have 100+ rec 1000+ yards as long as he stays healthy in this offense. wes blew up and got 1500+ yards in 2010. i expect jules to have that kinda season soon.

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