Dump on me all you want, I think Krafty is a little smarter than he's given credit for

IllegalContact said:

so how would Bob Kraft stop that?

not sure you recall, but people were hating on the pats and us fans prior to spygate.......to me, nothing has changed......bunch of jealous wannabees......it's like anything else 99% of the noise is coming from 1%....you'll never change that

honestly, I've grown quite comfortable with the 'hate' ....... it's so fabulously pathetic and the stories are getting better

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There was no hate until Kraft capitulated the first time in 2007. He also took a shot at Belichick then and could have chased him away (as someone else here noted). Kraft blamed Belichick and even publicly called him a "schmuck" but had no problem with Goodell's fabricated violation. That also started the nonsense that their SBs were tainted from the years BEFORE. I never have been able to figure that one out.

And now, here we are 8 years later, and the NYFL doesn't even have to have a reason anymore. They can just take picks and money away from the Pats because they want to, and Kraft will bend over and take it like a real man. He knows that fans are mad, but he's banking (literally) on the fact that he won't be losing any and will still be able to keep his Billionaire Boys Club decoder ring.

It's pretty simple. Kraft did what was best for Kraft. As a fan, it sucks that what was best for Kraft is not what was best for the team.
He did what he did, and the reasons are obvious.
It seems we are back again to the bi-weekly make up a hidden agenda to try to defend Kraft and convince people he isn't who he is.
Its tiresome.

Sorry to get in the way of your bitter argument, but on the issue of getting our picks back. I don't think its a matter of law that will get them back.

It is September now and the issue of whether Brady was in some kind of conspiracy to deflate balls to gain a competitive advantage has drastically turned since the "scandal" first broke and the Welles Report was first issued. I believe is becoming clearer every week that nothing happened at the AFCCG. By April it will be 7 months clearer.

At that point it will be VERY hard to defend taking a #1 draft pick away from a team, when everyone knows no crime was committed. Even the league office itself has pretty much accepted that nothing happened that night. Beyond all the legal arguments and appeals that might still be raised down the road, the Pats could raise a great PR campaign arguing the credibility of the justification of the league to take that pick. It would once again reflect very badly on the league and Goodell in particular. It would smack of a bitter petty man who is waging a personal attack on a particular team simply because he can.

It would take a Federal Judge about 2 meetings to see through Goodell's web of lies. A web of lies SO pervasive that a sitting Federal Judge not only called him out on it, he went out of his way to make sure anyone who read his judgement would know it too.

So yeah, I know the haters are still out there, but even now you can tell that even they don't believe the crap they are spewing. Basically they are really just trolling Pats fans and tweaking them because they know it will piss us off no end. They rarely quote the Welles report now, never try and use the science to defend their position., and the Mort Report has been deleted from their arsenal.. Every time they try and explain how and why the Pats cheated, they are almost immediately met with direct facts that totally destroy their positions. So now we are left with the Trollers to don't argue anything. They just yell "Cheater, Cheater, Cheater, You know you are Nah, Nah Nah" They no longer are looking to damn us with any kind of logic..

And yes, I understand that Goodell still has ESPN to continue the attack on the Pats, but even they don't dare to question the reality that nothing happened on that night. They are just pawns continuing in the general attack on the Pats good name, and that's another issue entirely.

So if this is where we currently are, I would think 7 months down the road, it will only be better, and much more difficult to defend taking the pick. Think about as we near the Draft, every interview Goodell makes, he has to explain just why the Pats first round draft pick is being taken away when it's clear that the crime they were accused of didn't happen. "What's your justification Roger.

To be honest, who really cares about Kraft. He is compelled to pursue profit. Handwringing over whether he is good or bad is missing the point.

patfanken said:

Sorry to get in the way of your bitter argument, but on the issue of getting our picks back. I don't think its a matter of law that will get them back.

It is September now and the issue of whether Brady was in some kind of conspiracy to deflate balls to gain a competitive advantage has drastically turned since the "scandal" first broke and the Welles Report was first issued. I believe is becoming clearer every week that nothing happened at the AFCCG. By April it will be 7 months clearer.

At that point it will be VERY hard to defend taking a #1 draft pick away from a team, when everyone knows no crime was committed. Even the league office itself has pretty much accepted that nothing happened that night. Beyond all the legal arguments and appeals that might still be raised down the road, the Pats could raise a great PR campaign arguing the credibility of the justification of the league to take that pick. It would once again reflect very badly on the league and Goodell in particular. It would smack of a bitter petty man who is waging a personal attack on a particular team simply because he can.

It would take a Federal Judge about 2 meetings to see through Goodell's web of lies. A web of lies SO pervasive that a sitting Federal Judge not only called him out on it, he went out of his way to make sure anyone who read his judgement would know it too.

So yeah, I know the haters are still out there, but even now you can tell that even they don't believe the crap they are spewing. Basically they are really just trolling Pats fans and tweaking them because they know it will piss us off no end. They rarely quote the Welles report now, never try and use the science to defend their position., and the Mort Report has been deleted from their arsenal.. Every time they try and explain how and why the Pats cheated, they are almost immediately met with direct facts that totally destroy their positions. So now we are left with the Trollers to don't argue anything. They just yell "Cheater, Cheater, Cheater, You know you are Nah, Nah Nah" They no longer are looking to damn us with any kind of logic..

And yes, I understand that Goodell still has ESPN to continue the attack on the Pats, but even they don't dare to question the reality that nothing happened on that night. They are just pawns continuing in the general attack on the Pats good name, and that's another issue entirely.

So if this is where we currently are, I would think 7 months down the road, it will only be better, and much more difficult to defend taking the pick. Think about as we near the Draft, every interview Goodell makes, he has to explain just why the Pats first round draft pick is being taken away when it's clear that the crime they were accused of didn't happen. "What's your justification Roger.

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Ken,
I sincerely hope you are right, but I just don't see it happening. The NFL front office and their mouthpieces will continues to double down on this with random smears and the longer that loss of the draft picks and the $1million fine are out of the consciousness of the standard fan the less chance of getting them back.By the time of the draft, it will turn into "Spygate" redux. Most people outside of New England "know" that during "Spygate" the Pats got fined and lost a draft pick for Taping a walk through and all sorts of nefarious spying. Not for having a camera in the wrong location because of a misinterpreted memo. IMO, this will turn out the same way. By the draft, the Pats will be losing 2 draft picks and $1million for a proven history of diabolical acts that started with kidnapping Lindbergh's baby.

I hope I am wrong and you are right. We will see.

primetime said:

To be honest, who really cares about Kraft. He is compelled to pursue profit. Handwringing over whether he is good or bad is missing the point.

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The fact is that we have an outstanding franchise here.....with lots of good football....griping about one of the best owners in the league is petty

patfanken said:

Beyond all the legal arguments and appeals that might still be raised down the road, the Pats could raise a great PR campaign arguing the credibility of the justification of the league to take that pick.

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But they won't.

IllegalContact said:

and here we are.......some of you are such fricking babies....if its so bad support some other team

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Can you not make a distinction between the owner as hr presently is and the team? I was a fan of the team long before rollover Bob was the owner

SteveKiner said:

Ken,
I sincerely hope you are right, but I just don't see it happening. The NFL front office and their mouthpieces will continues to double down on this with random smears and the longer that loss of the draft picks and the $1million fine are out of the consciousness of the standard fan the less chance of getting them back.By the time of the draft, it will turn into "Spygate" redux. Most people outside of New England "know" that during "Spygate" the Pats got fined and lost a draft pick for Taping a walk through and all sorts of nefarious spying. Not for having a camera in the wrong location because of a misinterpreted memo. IMO, this will turn out the same way. By the draft, the Pats will be losing 2 draft picks and $1million for a proven history of diabolical acts that started with kidnapping Lindbergh's baby.

I hope I am wrong and you are right. We will see.

Click to expand...

Legally, there is little chance, but that's not the point. The NEP could use the process of suing to get the picks to shine a bright light on the actions of the league.

SteveKiner said:

Ken,
I sincerely hope you are right, but I just don't see it happening. The NFL front office and their mouthpieces will continues to double down on this with random smears and the longer that loss of the draft picks and the $1million fine are out of the consciousness of the standard fan the less chance of getting them back.By the time of the draft, it will turn into "Spygate" redux. Most people outside of New England "know" that during "Spygate" the Pats got fined and lost a draft pick for Taping a walk through and all sorts of nefarious spying. Not for having a camera in the wrong location because of a misinterpreted memo. IMO, this will turn out the same way. By the draft, the Pats will be losing 2 draft picks and $1million for a proven history of diabolical acts that started with kidnapping Lindbergh's baby.

I hope I am wrong and you are right. We will see.

Click to expand...

Fair Points, Steve. But I see this as much different than spygate. As completely unfair as the punishment was, in spygate the Pat DID do something wrong. Again as ludicrous as the memo was, the league did give Bill about 3 warnings not to do it, and Bill did. The problem I have with spygate was the impression it left that the Pats were punished for cheating rather than institutional arrogance. Clearly the punishment didn't come close to fitting the crime, but a "crime" did occur.

In this case there is compelling evidence that NO crime occurred and the Pats are still being forced to pay a high price of literally NOTHING. THAT kind of PR campaign will be hard for the league to justify or defend. Think about this picture. It's right after the superbow, and the league is having its first owner meeting. Outside the hotel are a thousand picketers shouting "Why, Roger, Why?" Think about how at EVERY public interview his forced to justify and defend his punishment DESPITE the lack of a crime

Hopefully by March Brady will have filed his defamation suit and the "leaks" of secret messages between Kensil and Irsay and Goodell become public, as well as emails for the NFL offices to ESPN. That's crap enough to make the League want to cut there losses, and find some other punishment and other reasons for the punishment.

Any way its just and thought and what I would be doing, which is everthing to cause the league offices pain

patfanken said:

Fair Points, Steve. But I see this as much different than spygate. As completely unfair as the punishment was, in spygate the Pat DID do something wrong. Again as ludicrous as the memo was, the league did give Bill about 3 warnings not to do it, and Bill did. The problem I have with spygate was the impression it left that the Pats were punished for cheating rather than institutional arrogance. Clearly the punishment didn't come close to fitting the crime, but a "crime" did occur.

In this case there is compelling evidence that NO crime occurred and the Pats are still being forced to pay a high price of literally NOTHING. THAT kind of PR campaign will be hard for the league to justify or defend. Think about this picture. It's right after the superbow, and the league is having its first owner meeting. Outside the hotel are a thousand picketers shouting "Why, Roger, Why?" Think about how at EVERY public interview his forced to justify and defend his punishment DESPITE the lack of a crime

Hopefully by March Brady will have filed his defamation suit and the "leaks" of secret messages between Kensil and Irsay and Goodell become public, as well as emails for the NFL offices to ESPN. That's crap enough to make the League want to cut there losses, and find some other punishment and other reasons for the punishment.

Any way its just and thought and what I would be doing, which is everthing to cause the league offices pain

Click to expand...

Ken,
Again, it would make ecstatic if the scenario you described came to be. I guesss I have less belief in my fellow man than you do. I just think the smears will keep coming and all but the 6 New England states will believe all the crap that the NFL/ESPN will keep spewing. I really hope Brady and especially Jastremski and McNally file defamation suits. Discovery would be very enlightening. I also hope Robert, or more likely Jonathan Kraft would try a legal action. But as I have previously stated, I think with Robert's acceptance of the league's penalty that road got much tougher if not impossible. Hopefully what you say comes to pass. I just don't see it happening. All through this I kept hoping for the best and until Berman got involved it was just crap piled on crap. Independent investigation turns in to Wells. Possible 25k fine for equipment violation turns into 1st/4th/$1M. Kraft fire and brimstone turns into "bend over Bobby". As you said, anyone with an open mind can see the scenario where absolutely nothing happened. I just don't see it ever coming out the way it should. I hope I am wrong.

I've made worse mistakes than the one Kraft made.

SteveKiner said:

Ken,
Again, it would make ecstatic if the scenario you described came to be. I guesss I have less belief in my fellow man than you do. I just think the smears will keep coming and all but the 6 New England states will believe all the crap that the NFL/ESPN will keep spewing. I really hope Brady and especially Jastremski and McNally file defamation suits. Discovery would be very enlightening. I also hope Robert, or more likely Jonathan Kraft would try a legal action. But as I have previously stated, I think with Robert's acceptance of the league's penalty that road got much tougher if not impossible. Hopefully what you say comes to pass. I just don't see it happening. All through this I kept hoping for the best and until Berman got involved it was just crap piled on crap. Independent investigation turns in to Wells. Possible 25k fine for equipment violation turns into 1st/4th/$1M. Kraft fire and brimstone turns into "bend over Bobby". As you said, anyone with an open mind can see the scenario where absolutely nothing happened. I just don't see it ever coming out the way it should. I hope I am wrong.

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like I said, fair enough. You might not believe things will get better, but I ask just this, don't be so depressed that you give up fighting for the truth. Then they truly will win.

BTW- I have fought the battle on the PFT comment pages, and other web sites. It isn't always pretty and definitely not easy. But the fact is that you can't help but notice things are changing. None of the haters ever mention Welles or the Mort numbers any more. It's become rarer that a hater will use Jastremski and McNally any more. In fact more and more the haters are relegated to just yelling out "CHEATER, CHEATER". They are just left with trolling Pats fans. Eventually even that will wear thin and I expect it to wain as well.

Remember there are 7 more months for the air to clear, and even if the NFL attacks continue with ESPN, NONE of those attacks will have ANYTHING to do with Deflategate. That is a dead fish that the League does't want anything to do with. This thread was just about how we get our pick back in the next draft. And the key thing that needs to be done is to get Roger Goodell to justify losing that pick, EVERY time he is in public. That is within Kraft's power to do right now. Later an appeal or legal case can be attempted. I don see Kraft's acceptance of the penalties being impossible to overcome. It would be perfectly understandable if he said he'd been badly misinformed when he made that decision. The league as already been caught in so many lies already it would be very plausible that they lied to Kraft and misrepresented the situation to get him go along.,

Have hope, my friend. I may be overly optimistic, but that doesn't mean we will lose.

patfanken said:

Fair Points, Steve. But I see this as much different than spygate. As completely unfair as the punishment was, in spygate the Pat DID do something wrong. Again as ludicrous as the memo was, the league did give Bill about 3 warnings not to do it, and Bill did. The problem I have with spygate was the impression it left that the Pats were punished for cheating rather than institutional arrogance. Clearly the punishment didn't come close to fitting the crime, but a "crime" did occur.

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No. Again - just no. The Pats did not commit any crime.. They do not avoid the punishment - they avoid admitting they did anything wrong.

How? Simple - its exactly like the Brady case. EXACTLY. His lawyers didn't even claim that Brady didn't deflate the balls. They simply said - hey there is nothing in the rulebook that states that being generally aware of a scheme to deflate balls is anything more then a 25k fine on the team.

This is WHY Bill ignored the memos. They were reading the rule book wrong in the memo. They were making up rules that WERE NOT THERE.

Read this:

The MEMO:

“Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent’s offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches’ booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game.”



Unfortunately, the memo misquotes the rules, and Anderson can’t change the rules. Rule changes must be proposed to and voted on by the teams. The NFL cited the misquoted rules against the Patriots from pages A105-A106 of the league’s Policy Manual for Member Clubs Volume II: Game Operations 2007 edition.



Miscellaneous Rules and Regulations, Section A. reads, “No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches’ booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game.”



The league also cited a portion of section D against the Patriots. Section D reads, “To ensure the protection of equipment and employees of the teams’ video departments, please follow the guidelines listed for the video shooting booths at your stadium.”

The league quoted the first guideline against the Patriots, “All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead.” The rules never prohibit filming coaches. The sections used against the Patriots only concern camera locations.

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http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...pygate-punishing-success-and-promoting-parity

The commissoner's office DOES NOT GET TO MAKE THE RULES. By laying down and pretending they do the owner Kraft brought all this pain down on his own team. Both this and the spygate disaster were caused by his poor management of both Goodell and the NFL office. Throw in the fact that he inexplicably backed him when he screwed up with Ray Rice.. Its some of the dumbest stuff ever..

Ray Rice gave him the political capital to throw out a guy who already stabbed his team in the back - and he totally dropped the ball. Kraft got lucky with BB - and is even luckier he didn't walk out..

skinnydog said:

Can you not make a distinction between the owner as hr presently is and the team? I was a fan of the team long before rollover Bob was the owner

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You preferred that team? I was a fan since 61, but following a team with no money, no stadium [then the worst ever constructed] and no championships, was less satisfying than following this one.

Given that i have always been a Billy Sullivan apologist, that's a pretty good endorsement of the team since Kraft took over.

They're looking to move some teams to LA. Maybe some experts on how easy it is to run a sports franchise and amass the type of fortune you need these days [not a 1960 AFL franchise, lol] should quit talking and buy one.

Wish I was that lucky.

It doesn't hurt to marry the boss's daughter as a start. Wish I was that lucky.

flasox27 said:

It doesn't hurt to marry the boss's daughter as a start. Wish I was that lucky.

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Oh yeah? Mr Hyatt owned the Patriots, Sullivan Stadium, or International Forest Products? Didn't know that.

BTW, since Kraft bought Rand-Whitney from his father in law in 1972, the company's growth trajectory has multiplied.

According to you, I'm sure, Harvard and Columbia simply gives out degrees to anyone who asks.

You are repeating word for word crap from Shaughnessy. Next, you will start about the highchairs and how the stain of deflategate cheating will never be lifted from the Patriots.

.....oh yes, and about how Bill Parcells is the real reason for the Patriots Dynasty.

I'm sure the Sullivans are more your kind of success story.

flasox27 said:

It doesn't hurt to marry the boss's daughter as a start. Wish I was that lucky.

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I bet you bought the local company you worked for, after 7 years, then founded a similar company, merged them and turned this into the largest private company in the country in that field and a multinational with a presence in 80 countries.

Why don't you tell us about it? We'd love to hear your story.

shmessy said:

Oh yeah? Mr Hyatt owned the Patriots, Sullivan Stadium, or International Forest Products? Didn't know that.

BTW, since Kraft bought Rand-Whitney from his father in law in 1972, the company's growth trajectory has multiplied.

According to you, I'm sure, Harvard and Columbia simply gives out degrees to anyone who asks.

You are repeating word for word crap from Shaughnessy. Next, you will start about the highchairs and how the stain of deflategate cheating will never be lifted from the Patriots.

.....oh yes, and about how Bill Parcells is the real reason for the Patriots Dynasty.

I'm sure the Sullivans are more your kind of success story.

Click to expand...

And I'll still defend Billy Sullivan. Nobody was interested in the AFL in Boston. Previous football teams had failed. You could not get anything built in Boston due to politics and scarce land and the franchise had all but been awarded to Philadelphia, with a press conference scheduled on Monday. Patriots Planet annihilus has an article about Billy Sullivan spending the weekend on the phone stealing the franchise away.

So easy to criticize people who actually do things, take risks, risk reputations and failure, so you can sit on your ass on Sunday with your corn chips and watch a game.