And then there's this guy (our new safety, Jordan Richards)

Brady6 said:

Chancellor is 6'3" 231lbs that is what makes him so effective is his size not his athleticism.

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Really? His athleticism is top notch - - just not in certain combine measures.

Haven't people learned that the game is played on the field and not on the combine metric?

http://www.nfl.com/videos/seattle-s...Kam-Chancellor-leaps-to-block-two-field-goals


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TBR said:

True, although I found it interesting they had the same vertical jump despite a 4 inch height difference.

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Height is irrelevant when it comes to the vertical jump because reach is factored in I believe - it's a level playing field for everyone.

shmessy said:

I love the "wouldn't it be nice" game.

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I don't love the "passive aggressive drive-by comment about something someone else said rather than making a positive contribution to a dialogue" game. Life is short, pro football is a minor distraction.

McClusky said:

I'd disagree strongly, if you're going to play deep safety at some point you're going to take some wrong steps. McCourty did it 3 times I can remember last season that led to some big plays against the Seahawks, Packers, and Broncos. Harmon in all the coaches tape I saw from last season was remarkably consistent. I'd argue he actually has the better instincts between McCourty and him, just nowhere near the athleticism or versatility that McCourty has. Harmon made a misstep last week, but I think it's recency bias to say he struggles with consistency when he's taken probably about 600 snaps to this point in his career and hardly ever erred.

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To clarify our debate, you are calling out getting burned. I am not saying he does that all the time. I used the Saints play as an example of being inconsistent in diagnosing a play and not recognizing that the cover guy was beaten. You can argue that he did the same thing on the Kearse play in the SB as he was way late coming over to help Malcolm. I agree that Harmon does not get "burned" often but should be in a better position to make plays. It is possible that in playing the role of deep-guy, he needs to play risk-adverse which is fine but you won't put yourself in as good of a position to make stops or force turnovers as you should if you don't see whats developing in front of you better.

robertweathers said:

To clarify our debate, you are calling out getting burned. I am not saying he does that all the time. I used the Saints play as an example of being inconsistent in diagnosing a play and not recognizing that the cover guy was beaten. You can argue that he did the same thing on the Kearse play in the SB as he was way late coming over to help Malcolm. I agree that Harmon does not get "burned" often but should be in a better position to make plays. It is possible that in playing the role of deep-guy, he needs to play risk-adverse which is fine but you won't put yourself in as good of a position to make stops or force turnovers as you should if you don't see whats developing in front of you better.

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Actually Harmon played the Kearse play exactly as he should have. His primary alignment was just to the left off of center about 20 yards off the ball and the guy on the slot ran a up route up the left side. Had Harmon broken to cover Kearse earlier he would have given a clean shot to the slot receiver towards the endzone.

This is where coaches film makes the difference. Honestly with a player like Harmon, you as a fan quite literally will never know if he's doing his job correctly on game day because you can never see all of what is going on on the field.

With regards to Turnovers and passes defensed he's pretty much on par with McCourty on a per snap basis over the last 2 seasons.

He has 3 INTs and 5 PD in 706 snaps
McCourty has 3 INTs and 15 PD in 2022 snaps.

robertweathers said:

To clarify our debate, you are calling out getting burned. I am not saying he does that all the time. I used the Saints play as an example of being inconsistent in diagnosing a play and not recognizing that the cover guy was beaten. You can argue that he did the same thing on the Kearse play in the SB as he was way late coming over to help Malcolm. I agree that Harmon does not get "burned" often but should be in a better position to make plays. It is possible that in playing the role of deep-guy, he needs to play risk-adverse which is fine but you won't put yourself in as good of a position to make stops or force turnovers as you should if you don't see whats developing in front of you better.

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McClusky said:

Actually Harmon played the Kearse play exactly as he should have. His primary alignment was just to the left off of center about 20 yards off the ball and the guy on the slot ran a seam rout up the left side. Had Harmon broken to cover Kearse earlier he would have given a clean shot to the slot receiver towards the endzone.

This is where coaches film makes the difference.

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Great debate guys.

primetime said:

Just totally different eras, and Rice's third year was in a shortened season due to labor issues. Let's compare their second years in the league.

In 1986, his second year, Rice had 86 receptions, 1570 yards, and 15 TDs. He was second in the league in receptions, first in yards, and first in TDs. By comparison, in Green's second year, he had 97 receptions, 1350 yards, and 11 TDs. He was 7th in the league in receptions, 10th in yards, and tied for 4th in TDs.

In 1986, only 7 players had 80 or more receptions (0 had 100); 16 players had 1000 yards (1, Rice, had 1500); 7 had 10 or more TDs. In 2012, 17 players had more than 80 receptions (6 had 100), 20 had 1000 yards (3 had more than 1500), and 10 had 10 or more TDs.

In Rice's third year, he set an NFL record for touchdowns with 22 in a 12 game season.

The insane thing about Rice when comparing him to someone like AJ Green, a top-10 or so receiver in the current era, is exactly that Rice put up better statistics in an era when the average receiving stats were substantially lower across the board.

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It was a "different era", but the 49ers were a pass-first offense in a time where there was only one other pass-first offense (Miami), so they had the advantage in going against a lesser caliber of CB than was needed to defend such an offense. Also, Montana was a hall-of-fame QB, one of the top-3 of all time by most consensus.

Deion Sanders didn't break into the league until 1989.

McClusky said:

Actually Harmon played the Kearse play exactly as he should have. His primary alignment was just to the left off of center about 20 yards off the ball and the guy on the slot ran a seam rout up the left side. Had Harmon broken to cover Kearse earlier he would have given a clean shot to the slot receiver towards the endzone.

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Its a fascinating play to analyze. God knows we've all done it a million times.

My belief is that Harmon was playing a bit too deep (he was at the 7 when he made his break which was 31 yards beyond the LoC) In theory, if he was where you say he should be (around the 18), he would have been in a better position to make the play (providing he took the right angle) on the ball if the QB overthrows it however that might have been a bit to close to the LoC as Butler and he would have been on the same spot and with an in stride catch, Kearse would have cruised in for a TD. He should have been around the 10.

With that said, it was 28-24 with about a minute plus left. The risk-adverse play is to be way the hell back there and not allow a TD, which is to be the last line of defense on making a TD saving tackle had Malcolm allowed a completion.

Who knows..

robertweathers said:

Its a fascinating play to analyze. God knows we've all done it a million times.

My belief is that Harmon was playing a bit too deep (he was at the 7 when he made his break which was 31 yards beyond the LoC) In theory, if he was where you say he should be (around the 18), he would have been in a better position to make the play (providing he took the right angle) on the ball if the QB overthrows it however that might have been a bit to close to the LoC as Butler and he would have been on the same spot and with an in stride catch, Kearse would have cruised in for a TD. He should have been around the 10.

With that said, it was 28-24 with about a minute plus left. The risk-adverse play is to be way the hell back there and not allow a TD, which is to be the last line of defense on making a TD saving tackle had Malcolm allowed a completion.

Who knows..

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The 20 yard alignment presnap and 10 yard drop from our cover 1 safety is standard for virtually every passing play in that shell. Harmon did exactly what he was supposed to on that play. He actually correctly read the QB's eyes and opened his hips at the 15 and started to close on the ball. If I had my computer I'd make a gif of the coaches film, but there is literally nothing in this scenario to criticize except obviously he should have tried to snag the ball while Kearse was trying to catch it, but that is a totally seperate issue.

McClusky said:

The 20 yard alignment presnap and 10 yard drop from our cover 1 safety is standard for virtually every passing play in that shell. Harmon did exactly what he was supposed to on that play. He actually correctly read the QB's eyes and opened his hips at the 15 and started to close on the ball. If I had my computer I'd make a gif of the coaches film, but there is literally nothing in this scenario to criticize except obviously he should have tried to snag the ball while Kearse was trying to catch it, but that is a totally seperate issue.

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Coaches will side them up or back based on the situation and personnel they see. Players also have the option of sliding up/back based on what they see on the field and align them accordingly.

He was nowhere near the 15. He broke at the 7.

Good debate but I think it's best we agree to disagree.

robertweathers said:

Coaches will side them up or back based on the situation and personnel they see. Players also have the option of sliding up/back based on what they see on the field and align them accordingly.

He was nowhere near the 15. He broke at the 7.

Good debate but I think it's best we agree to disagree.

View attachment 10182

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I'll make a gif when I get home. If you're seeing the play as it occured there is virtually no criticism of Harmon on the play. He played it exactly as he should have.

McClusky said:

I'll make a gif when I get home. If you're seeing the play as it occured there is virtually no criticism of Harmon on the play. He played it exactly as he should have.

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I'm cool with an updated image showing him starting at the ~18 and dropping to the ~7. Thats fine. With that, I will then turn my criticism away from Harmon to whomever positioned him so deep. I understand the logic of the ultra-conservative defensive call but my god....way too deep IMO. I thought the same thing back in February and I do now. Wilson had a big spot to throw to without any help over the top coming over. That was bad.

So no, I have zero issue criticizing BB or Patricia. Everyone screws up...even them.

TBR said:

Which guy would you draft?

Spoiler: Spoiler - Click here to see who's who

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I would never draft on numbers alone. That would be insane.

robertweathers said:

I'm cool with an updated image showing him starting at the ~18 and dropping to the ~7. Thats fine. With that, I will then turn my criticism away from Harmon to whomever positioned him so deep. I understand the logic of the ultra-conservative defensive call but my god....way too deep IMO. I thought the same thing back in February and I do now. Wilson had a big spot to throw to without any help over the top coming over. That was bad.

So no, I have zero issue criticizing BB or Patricia. Everyone screws up...even them.

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Harmon's break begins at the 15, he identifies very quickly that the pass is going right. However, when you open your hips your momentum doesn't immediately make you go parallel, and if he did go parallel and Wilson throws an arching pass he's not going to get there. He's exactly where he should be. Wilson threw the pass on the shallow side between Kearse towards the sideline. That's not really something Harmon could have prevented unless he know where the ball was going off the snap and made a B line right for the ball.

In terms of the playcall it was fine. They ran man across the board on 5 wide receivers, and had McCourty spying on Wilson with Harmon in the deep cover 1 to prevent the TD in case of a completion short of the goal line. It was neither aggressive or conservative. It was the best playcall and everybody played good coverage, it was just an awesome catch by Kearse. It literally wnet exactly as the Pats drew it up.

McClusky said:

Spoiler

Harmon's break begins at the 15, he identifies very quickly that the pass is going right. However, when you open your hips your momentum doesn't immediately make you go parallel, and if he did go parallel and Wilson throws an arching pass he's not going to get there. He's exactly where he should be. Wilson threw the pass on the shallow side between Kearse towards the sideline. That's not really something Harmon could have prevented unless he know where the ball was going off the snap and made a B line right for the ball.

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This is great. Good discussion. Thanks for sharing.

I'm not going to beat on Harmon too much more here as it is what it is. My issue on this play still remains that he didn't take a great angle on the play. You have shown here that he goes from the 15 to the 9 and to the 7 in my image. That falls in the ~30 yards in that shell which I agree with. However, my issue is that his angle to the ball was not very good OR it was incredibly conservative- which could have been by design. Instead of running parallel to the 7 he should have planted and ran right to the 1st down marker.

With that said, Harmon may just be the NFL version of that classic stay at home defensemen.

How did you get the film? Is that NFL package?

So... How 'bout that Jordan Richards guy?

Creative Username said:

So... How 'bout that Jordan Richards guy?

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Yea it got hijacked. My bad. On to Richards....

IcyPatriot said:

I wish I could find the quote where Belichick says he'd rather have a slightly slower player who does not take any wrong steps over a quicker player who takes them. That quote had something to do with rodney Harrison as I remember it.

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I remember Rodney saying "It doesn't matter how fast you are if you don't know where to go."

(Paraphrased. And apologies, I posted this recently in another Jordans' thread)

robertweathers said:

Yea it got hijacked. My bad. On to Richards....

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At least it was hijacked by some excellent football discussion unlike some threads.

robertweathers said:

This is great. Good discussion. Thanks for sharing.

I'm not going to beat on Harmon too much more here as it is what it is. My issue on this play still remains that he didn't take a great angle on the play. You have shown here that he goes from the 15 to the 9 and to the 7 in my image. That falls in the ~30 yards in that shell which I agree with. However, my issue is that his angle to the ball was not very good OR it was incredibly conservative- which could have been by design. Instead of running parallel to the 7 he should have planted and ran right to the 1st down marker.

With that said, Harmon may just be the NFL version of that classic stay at home defensemen.

How did you get the film? Is that NFL package?

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Last one I promise... Maybe haha

After having watched hundreds of these plays I say with absolute confidence that how Harmon played it is how he's coached to, and it makes sense. You as the viewer have the added benefit of knowing when and where Wilson is going to throw the ball. All Harmon sees is a WR running running a wheel route. If Harmon breaks on the receiver right away and Wilson pumps and drops it in the basket instead of trying to gun it in there, Harmon's totally blown his responsibility as the last line of defense. Butler has tight coverage, but a well thrown ball could hit it's mark just like the Brady-Gronk connection earlier in the game.

Harmon's trying to take the top off that route and be in position to make a tackle if it's needed, which he was in perfect position to do so.