One lawyer's differing opinion on the recent court transcripts

hypotherion · Aug 27, 2015

YOUGOTMOSSED said:
No. If he vacates for lack of notice, there's no "do-over." Goodell can't turn back time and give notice when he failed to do so initially. That's why vacating on the ground of lack of notice would be a legal "home run" for us.

Right I was talking about what happens if he doesn't vacate due to lack of notice but does for a different reason. To summarize:

Vacates for lack of notice: no new proceedings.
Vacates for evident partiality: neutral arbitrator
Vacates for some other reason: Goodell as arbitrator again

Ring 6 · Aug 27, 2015

raduray said:
That's like telling us at 5 o'clock, that a broken clock showing 5 o'clock is correct.

Yeah pretty much. I'd say more like a coin flip because he is guessing an outcome and his lack of understanding makes it an uneducated guess.

Ring 6 · Aug 27, 2015

hypotherion said:
Right I was talking about what happens if he doesn't vacate due to lack of notice but does for a different reason. To summarize:

Vacates for lack of notice: no new proceedings.

Vacates for evident partiality: neutral arbitrator

Vacates for some other reason: Goodell as arbitrator again

I think the judge has the ability to rule that a 3rd party needs to arbitrate regardless of the reason.
There is no way the result of this will be vacatur then have the same hearing all over again but Pash takes the stand and lies.

hypotherion · Aug 27, 2015

AndyJohnson said:
I think the judge has the ability to rule that a 3rd party needs to arbitrate regardless of the reason.
There is no way the result of this will be vacatur then have the same hearing all over again but Pash takes the stand and lies.

I'm not a lawyer but according to Daniel Wallach the judge would have to vacate on the grounds of evident partiality in order to appoint a neutral arbitraitor, otherwise per the CBA it goes back to Goodell.

1960Pats · Aug 27, 2015

TommyD4207 said:
Lester Munson was disbarred in 1991 for stealing money from a client as part of a settlement to keep him out of jail.

I dismiss everything Lester Munson says about the law, because he's not an attorney. What he says is not relevant to any discussion, especially those about the law or legal issues.

I wouldn't care if he was writing about how beautifully written Tom Brady's shopping list is - I still wouldn't give **** one about anything Lester Munson has to say about anything.

There are plenty of actual lawyers with actual knowledge who have written similar things to Munson. If you're looking for someone to agree with that position, I suggest you pick some of them.

Not this utter fraud.

Other than the first line, we could substitute Goodell for Munson and it would fit like a glove.

YOUGOTMOSSED · Aug 27, 2015

hypotherion said:
Right I was talking about what happens if he doesn't vacate due to lack of notice but does for a different reason. To summarize:

Vacates for lack of notice: no new proceedings.

Vacates for evident partiality: neutral arbitrator

Vacates for some other reason: Goodell as arbitrator again

If he vacates on the ground that Brady was unfairly denied discovery (witness testimony, NFL investigation files) it's hard to see how Goodell could continue as an arbitrator as the new information may implicate him.

I guess the moral of the story is . . . arbitration sucks. Whatever benefit of expediency and finality you're getting from it simply isn't worth the price of sacrificing fairness and getting the facts right.

Ring 6 · Aug 27, 2015

hypotherion said:
I'm not a lawyer but according to Daniel Wallach the judge would have to vacate on the grounds of evident partiality in order to appoint a neutral arbitraitor, otherwise per the CBA it goes back to Goodell.

Again, I do not think that is a given. If the judge rules, for example, that not allowing Brady's team to have the notes, and question Pash, those are decisions that were made by Goodell, and Goodell himself violated the fairness of the trial. I am not a lawyer either, but I am quite certain I have read that the judge has the latitude to direct who the arbitrator will be, or how he will be chosen.
Obviously in this case, if he rules for Brady he will clearly understand any re-appeal under Goodell would be a sham.

Ring 6 · Aug 27, 2015

YOUGOTMOSSED said:
If he vacates on the ground that Brady was unfairly denied discovery (witness testimony, NFL investigation files) it's hard to see how Goodell could continue as an arbitrator as the new information may implicate him.

I guess the moral of the story is . . . arbitration sucks. Whatever benefit of expediency and finality you're getting from it simply isn't worth the price of sacrificing fairness and getting the facts right.

Arbitration sucks, in some circumstances. In this one, it was clearly a dog and pony show that had no pretense of being fair.
However, if it were an arbitration hearing/appeal and the arbitrator was Judge Richard Berman, its pretty safe to say it the result would have been legal fair, if not also intellectually fair.

SHOWTIME15 · Aug 27, 2015

am i the only one who is getting a sinking feeling about this? nothing has gone right so far it seems...

YOUGOTMOSSED · Aug 27, 2015

AndyJohnson said:
Arbitration sucks, in some circumstances. In this one, it was clearly a dog and pony show that had no pretense of being fair.
However, if it were an arbitration hearing/appeal and the arbitrator was Judge Richard Berman, its pretty safe to say it the result would have been legal fair, if not also intellectually fair.

For it to work, you need someone who is: (1) truly neutral; (2) has 1/2 a brain; (3) give a sh*t about fairness and getting the facts straight and the rules right. Goodell is none of the above

It still boggles my mind that a NY superfan with an undergraduate degree in "nonsense" from "stupid, spoiled, rich kid" university is given this kind of authority in running a multi billion dollar business.

TruthSeeker · Aug 27, 2015

TommyBrady12 said:
am i the only one who is getting a sinking feeling about this? nothing has gone right so far it seems...

You're not the only one but you are in a small minority.

Ice_Ice_Brady · Aug 27, 2015

TommyBrady12 said:
am i the only one who is getting a sinking feeling about this? nothing has gone right so far it seems...

I feel the same way. Evil/lies is like 5-0 right now in this battle. I just keep thinking that Berman, even though he doesn't want to, is going to uphold the arbitration award. And even worse, then comes the obnoxious piling on from a bunch of dishonest and/or ignorant sports writers and fans who pump their chest and proclaim that Goodell was great during the whole thing and Brady's legacy is rightfully tarnished. Sorry to be so negative, but the Wells and Goodell have really driven the knife deep on this.

Ring 6 · Aug 27, 2015

YOUGOTMOSSED said:
For it to work, you need someone who is: (1) truly neutral; (2) has 1/2 a brain; (3) give a sh*t about fairness and getting the facts straight and the rules right. Goodell is none of the above

It still boggles my mind that a NY superfan with an undergraduate degree in "nonsense" from "stupid, spoiled, rich kid" university is given this kind of authority in running a multi billion dollar business.

The 32 were way ahead of Cris Carter in finding their fall guy.
Think about it. They are attacking the players, trying to find out if they can simply do whatever they want, and Roger is too stupid to realize he looks like a total moron. Owners wanted to test these issues, and couldn't find anyone else dumb enough to be the face of them. Roger, The Fall Guy.

Ring 6 · Aug 27, 2015

Ice_Ice_Brady said:
I feel the same way. Evil/lies is like 5-0 right now in this battle. I just keep thinking that Berman, even though he doesn't want to, is going to uphold the arbitration award. And even worse, then comes the obnoxious piling on from a bunch of dishonest and/or ignorant sports writers and fans who pump their chest and proclaim that Goodell was great during the whole thing and Brady's legacy is rightfully tarnished. Sorry to be so negative, but the Wells and Goodell have really driven the knife deep on this.

But why make the wallowing in self pity post?
What will happen will happen, but this defeatist attitude that even though the facts support vindication you are expecting a loss, is pointless. You will have plenty of time to deal with the consequences if and when they happen, why poison the rhetoric will 'we will lose because, well, I don't know, but I feel it"?

Ice_Ice_Brady · Aug 27, 2015

AndyJohnson said:
But why make the wallowing in self pity post?
What will happen will happen, but this defeatist attitude that even though the facts support vindication you are expecting a loss, is pointless. You will have plenty of time to deal with the consequences if and when they happen, why poison the rhetoric will 'we will lose because, well, I don't know, but I feel it"?

Please, further enlighten me on the specific content of what I should post. I would hate to think that posting my gut feeling is so offensive to you, since most of these other posts are so incredibly unique and enlightening and not merely someone's opinion that is often based on their own gut instinct.

Better yet, please do me a huge favor and select "Ignore Member" on my profile, so that you won't be in the unfortunate position of being forced to read a negative post that doesn't fall in line with your legendary rah-rah homerism.

Ring 6 · Aug 27, 2015

Ice_Ice_Brady said:
Please, further enlighten me on the specific content of what I should post. I would hate to think that posting my gut feeling is so offensive to you, since most of these other posts are so incredibly unique and enlightening and not merely someone's opinion that is often based on their own gut instinct.

Better yet, please do me a huge favor and select "Ignore Member" on my profile, so that you won't be in the unfortunate position of being forced to read a negative post that doesn't fall in line with your legendary rah-rah homerism.

Lighten up, its a freaking football message board.

If it makes you feel better sit at your computer and post your fear that the sky is falling because it almost fell before, thats up to you. Just as me posting that its silly is up to me.

If my comment on your negativity affects you that much, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Palm Beach Pats Fan · Aug 27, 2015

TommyBrady12 said:
am i the only one who is getting a sinking feeling about this? nothing has gone right so far it seems...

I am worried too, but the overwhelming reason that not much has gone right so far has been that each and every time, Roger Goodell and his minions were in complete control of the process and were bound & determined to ensure that nothing would go right for us.

-the ideal gas law predictions matching the halftime pressure data should have ended it, but the NFL leaked FALSE data

-a real science-based independent investigation would have have ended it, but the NFL found lackies to write what they wanted them to write

-a thoughtful arbitrator would have have ended it, but we had Roger Goodell.

Help us Judge Berman, you're our only hope!

PatsFanSince74 · Aug 27, 2015

Poker said:
I agree. I'm sure Judge Berman doesn't much care what people think of him, but reading the last two transcripts, at this point he is so publicly favoring Brady and wrecking the NFL position, that he would look really stupid now to rule for the NFL IMO.

The only audience he's worried about is that of the judges on the Second Circuit Court of Appeals who will hear any Appeal of his ruling.

Ring 6 · Aug 27, 2015

PatsFanSince74 said:
The only audience he's worried about is that of the judges on the Second Circuit Court of Appeals who will hear any Appeal of his ruling.

Largely true, but he is human so things being written about him in the media and said about him on TV certainly matter to him.

FreeTedWilliams · Aug 27, 2015

Canuck said:
I've heard about how many arbitration cases are upheld in court and how few are overturned but I wish I knew how many cases were actually settled during the court case.

Here is the one big caveat in all of this..

Mostly all Arbitrators are lawyers, Goodell is not. Judges don't want to over rule Arbitrators because they are lawyers themselves and basically it would be like saying you are a bad lawyer. BUT Goodell is not a lawyer and I think this is very much in Brady's favor. I think that Berman will have no quams about over ruling Goodell, even calling into question his legal skills/knowledge. Having Goodell act as an Arbitrator is akin to having one of us coach the Pats, we may think we know what we are doing, but we really don't.

One lawyer's differing opinion on the recent court transcripts

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