Evan Mathis released

Rob0729 said:

I think Elway and Kubiak wouldn't agree with you about him being on par with Roethlisberger or Rivers because I could never see a head coach make either of those guys fit into their offense even if it doesn't play to their strengths. That is what they are doing in Denver.

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If we built a running game around Tom Brady it would be viewed as prolonging his career, allowing him to control the clock etc, and would be viewed as sheer brilliance. It would be welcomed with open arms, and has often been discussed. Yet when another team does it with their quarterback who won 12 games and threw for 39 touchdowns last year (in an "off" year), it's somehow viewed as a negative?

And if first ballot HOF quarterback Peyton Manning is not on par with other conference QBs such as Rivers, Flacco and Roethlisberger who were clearly a step or two below him heading into the 2nd half of last year (after a record setting 2013 and amazing first half of 2014), then who exactly, would you compare him to?

All of a sudden he has dropped so far that he's with such QBs as Ryan Fitzpatrick? Alex Smith? Andy Dalton? Brian Hoyer? Ryan Tannehill, maybe?

For the record, the Steelers completely retooled their entire offensive scheme when they brought Todd Haley in, which is why he and Roethlisberger have been viewed as butting heads so often in the media. There have been plenty of "good to very good" quarterbacks who have seen their systems changed when a new head coach steps in. If this is your argument as to how Peyton Manning won't be effective anymore, it's really, really stretching things.

How did their o line go so bad in one year? You couldn't touch Peyton in 2013.

Rob0729 said:

Oh, I think it is definitely a panic move. Just because Mathis is a good player doesn't mean it wasn't a panic move. They were going to go into the season with 3/5 of their starting o-line with no NFL experience. They were lucky Mathis was available.

Just because a team adds a solid player doesn't mean it isn't a panic move. With their future cap concerns and need to get younger at many positions, they didn't really need to use that $4 million on Mathis if they didn't feel like they had no choice.

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How do you know that they haven't been in touch with Mathis' agent for at least a few/several weeks now before TC even started?

Again, what would have been seen by the majority here as a solid veteran signing at a (fairly) reasonable price for New England, is suddenly completely opposite when another rival team makes the exact same choice?

What do you think they are saying in Denver right now about the loss of Revis, possible missed first month for Brady, and Belichick potentially starting 2 rookies on our OL? That's why people like that are called "homers." They refuse to look at things through the same lens for all teams. Their team always makes the right choices, while every other rival team drops off.

Marqui said:

Is this supposed to be a joke?

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Ummm. No. Let's see. He had an elite safety over top at times. Does he have that now? Nope. He had an elite offense to practice against everyday. Does he have that now? Nope. Did he get burned several times in the playoffs? Yup.

Would I rather have him here than not? Yep. Was he all world and worth 20 million?

Hell no.

Froob said:

How did their o line go so bad in one year? You couldn't touch Peyton in 2013.

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You couldn't touch him last year either. According to Football Outsiders, Denver had the #1 ranked pass protecting OL, having only given up a grand total of 17 sacks.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

As usual, people aren't taking into account the fact that Manning obviously hasn't played behind the best OLs in the game every single season in both IND and DEN. He effectively utilizes his very quick release, and ability to read the opposing defense pre-snap.

His OL will almost certainly take a step or two back this year, but what exactly does that mean? Do they go from 17 allowed sacks in 2014 to allowing 20-25 this year? Maybe 30? Who knows, especially if they run the ball more under Kubiak's system, but my guess is that Manning is still pretty good in this particular aspect.

supafly said:

You couldn't touch him last year either. According to Football Outsiders, Denver had the #1 ranked pass protecting OL, having only given up a grand total of 17 sacks.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

As usual, people aren't taking into account the fact that Manning obviously hasn't played behind the best OLs in the game every single season in both IND and DEN. He effectively utilizes his very quick release, and ability to read the opposing defense pre-snap.

His OL will almost certainly take a step or two back this year, but what exactly does that mean? Do they go from 17 allowed sacks in 2014 to allowing 20-25 this year? Maybe 30? Who knows, especially if they run the ball more under Kubiak's system, but my guess is that Manning is still pretty good in this particular aspect.

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Peyton has almost always had really good o lines but like you said you have to give him credit, he might very well have the fastest release of anyone to ever throw a football. Doesn't hang onto that ball for long.

Froob said:

Peyton has almost always had really good o lines but like you said you have to give him credit, he might very well have the fastest release of anyone to ever throw a football. Doesn't hang onto that ball for long.

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I think a strong argument can be made that both Manning and the Broncos may have stepped back a bit, but I think that may be a bit overstated. Does anyone really see them going any worse than 10-6 or so? If so, that really surprises me, although I suppose I shouldn't be, considering that we all had this same exact conversation in 2013 and 2014.

Personally, I would still include them in the same grouping as teams like IND, BAL etc as teams that will be competing for the conference with us. As others have mentioned, certain teams like PIT, SD, will likely be in contention as well, with some outside teams like CIN, KC, and MIA playing a role.

supafly said:

I think a strong argument can be made that both Manning and the Broncos may have stepped back a bit, but I think that may be a bit overstated. Does anyone really see them going any worse than 10-6 or so? If so, that really surprises me, although I suppose I shouldn't be, considering that we all had this same exact conversation in 2013 and 2014.

Personally, I would still include them in the same grouping as teams like IND, BAL etc as teams that will be competing for the conference with us. As others have mentioned, certain teams like PIT, SD, will likely be in contention as well, with some outside teams like CIN, KC, and MIA playing a role.

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I have a hunch on how that one will play out...first round wildcard blowout. But yeah back to the donkeys, Kubiak is a mediocre coach. CJ Anderson will have a huge year running in his scheme but ultimately nobody is winning anything with Kubiak at the helm. I also expect Manning to look better than how he did at the end of last year.

supafly said:

You couldn't touch him last year either. According to Football Outsiders, Denver had the #1 ranked pass protecting OL, having only given up a grand total of 17 sacks.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

As usual, people aren't taking into account the fact that Manning obviously hasn't played behind the best OLs in the game every single season in both IND and DEN. He effectively utilizes his very quick release, and ability to read the opposing defense pre-snap.

His OL will almost certainly take a step or two back this year, but what exactly does that mean? Do they go from 17 allowed sacks in 2014 to allowing 20-25 this year? Maybe 30? Who knows, especially if they run the ball more under Kubiak's system, but my guess is that Manning is still pretty good in this particular aspect.

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I'm personally interested in seeing Manning running bootlegs in that system.

Froob said:

Peyton has almost always had really good o lines but like you said you have to give him credit, he might very well have the fastest release of anyone to ever throw a football. Doesn't hang onto that ball for long.

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Manning has a pretty fast release, but he's not even in the same league of quickness as Aaron Rodger's release. Heck, even Jimmy G has a much quicker release than Manning.

Froob said:

How did their o line go so bad in one year? You couldn't touch Peyton in 2013.

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post traumatic rape disorder after SB48

Galeb said:

Manning has a pretty fast release, but he's not even in the same league of quickness as Aaron Rodger's release. Heck, even Jimmy G has a much quicker release than Manning.

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Well maybe a bit faster in his prime but not only is his release fast but he rarely hangs onto the ball for long. Hardest QB to sack imo.

Froob said:

Well maybe a bit faster in his prime but not only is his release fast but he rarely hangs onto the ball for long. Hardest QB to sack imo.

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Gotchya, I thought you were referring to the mechanical release of the football, not how quickly a QB gets rid of it after the snap.

supafly said:

If we built a running game around Tom Brady it would be viewed as prolonging his career, allowing him to control the clock etc, and would be viewed as sheer brilliance. It would be welcomed with open arms, and has often been discussed. Yet when another team does it with their quarterback who won 12 games and threw for 39 touchdowns last year (in an "off" year), it's somehow viewed as a negative?

And if first ballot HOF quarterback Peyton Manning is not on par with other conference QBs such as Rivers, Flacco and Roethlisberger who were clearly a step or two below him heading into the 2nd half of last year (after a record setting 2013 and amazing first half of 2014), then who exactly, would you compare him to?

All of a sudden he has dropped so far that he's with such QBs as Ryan Fitzpatrick? Alex Smith? Andy Dalton? Brian Hoyer? Ryan Tannehill, maybe?

For the record, the Steelers completely retooled their entire offensive scheme when they brought Todd Haley in, which is why he and Roethlisberger have been viewed as butting heads so often in the media. There have been plenty of "good to very good" quarterbacks who have seen their systems changed when a new head coach steps in. If this is your argument as to how Peyton Manning won't be effective anymore, it's really, really stretching things.

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If this team became a run first team, everyone would be biatching that we have Brady and we are running the ball. Let's get real.

But I can only speak for myself and if the Patriots installed an offensive system that didn't play to Brady's strengths, I would either admit that Brady is done or Belichick lost his mind.

And what does Manning being a first ballot HOFer mean to his level today/ Brett Favre is a first ballot HOFer. So if he came out of retirement, by your logic he would be on par with Roethlisberger or Rivers. We do not know where Manning is in terms of what type of QB he is. He could still be top 3 or he could be around 15-20 (where he ended the year last year). I am guessing he will start the year strong and decline as year goes on like last year and Broncos fans could be wishing for Tannehill. The guy is 39 years old, had several neck surgeries that have left him without any feeling in his fingers, the coaching staff is treating him like an old man on a pitch count and changing the offense to take the ball out of his hands. and has a mediocre at best o-line. I am not making a ridiculous claim that the guy could really have fallen of the age cliff.

And Haley's offense still utilized a lot of Roethlisberger's strengths, but it wasn't Ben's offenses. And you have two pompous asses butting heads over egos. And let's not forget that Haley's system has actually made Ben a better QB having some of his best years as a pro with it.

supafly said:

How do you know that they haven't been in touch with Mathis' agent for at least a few/several weeks now before TC even started?

Again, what would have been seen by the majority here as a solid veteran signing at a (fairly) reasonable price for New England, is suddenly completely opposite when another rival team makes the exact same choice?

What do you think they are saying in Denver right now about the loss of Revis, possible missed first month for Brady, and Belichick potentially starting 2 rookies on our OL? That's why people like that are called "homers." They refuse to look at things through the same lens for all teams. Their team always makes the right choices, while every other rival team drops off.

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The Broncos have been in desperation mode on the o-line since Clady went down in May. So even if they have been in touch with him for months, they have been panicking for months. The literally had the entire left side of the line including the center with no NFL experience. That is panic mode.

And I have pointed out several times that the Pats had panic mode type moves. Ted Washington was a panic mode because they were going into the season trying to run a 3-4 with no nose tackle. Panic mode doesn't necessarily mean you throw tons of money at garbage. It means you make a big move at the last minute because you have a glaring hole that you absolutely have to fix and you didn't address properly (or an injury changes the landscape) in the offseason.

And Denver fans have the right to question the holes on the this team. I am worried about the CB position and think it could be the reason why the Pats don't repeat or they fail when they do (assuming they don't repeat). Why wouldn't Broncos fans think that is a major hole for the Patriots and think that the Pats are vulnerable because of the fact that Revis and Browner are gone and they got an unproven second year UDFA as their #1 CB and a question mark to who is #2? I wouldn't blame them for that.

You go to the Broncos boards and there are plenty of Bronco fans questioning the Broncos' o-line and why they gutted it this offseason and didn't get more seasoned players to replace them. There are also plenty of Bronco fans who question how much Manning has left and whether the guy they saw in December and January of last year is the guy they will see this year.

Every year you overrate the competition. In 2013, it was the Ravens who missed the playoffs all together. Last year, it was the Broncos (although you were not alone) who were one and done. You seem to be going back to the well with the Broncos.

Froob said:

Peyton has almost always had really good o lines but like you said you have to give him credit, he might very well have the fastest release of anyone to ever throw a football. Doesn't hang onto that ball for long.

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The problem is last year he adopted a new throwing style where he almost throws the ball like a shot put. He put far more of his body behind the pass. It has slowed down his release a bit.

And if Kubiak makes him line up under center, that will definitely slow down his release. Part of his quick release is he is in the shotgun all game. He can make his reads faster because he doesn't have to take three step drops. I think especially with the questions of the o-line, that could be an issue for Manning.

Froob said:

How did their o line go so bad in one year?

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Excellent Subject, Brother Froob!!

01 ~ OC Manny Ramirez got traded because they went to a Zone Scheme.
02 ~ LG Orlando Franklin got poached in Free Agency.
03 ~ LT Ryan Clady tore'is ACL this Spring.

The first two were serviceable Starters, but Clady was a Beast.

RG Louis Vasquez is one'f the best in the Business, but RT Ryan Clark is mediocre.

So they've basically lost 3 of 5 Starters since last Year, including a great one.

It really is remarkable how quickly things change.

ViperGTS said:

Ummm. No. Let's see. He had an elite safety over top at times. Does he have that now? Nope. He had an elite offense to practice against everyday. Does he have that now? Nope. Did he get burned several times in the playoffs? Yup.

Would I rather have him here than not? Yep. Was he all world and worth 20 million?

Hell no.

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Revis never had elite qb's to practice against, not sure he has had any elite safeties to cover his back either.

Froob said:

Well maybe a bit faster in his prime but not only is his release fast but he rarely hangs onto the ball for long. Hardest QB to sack imo.

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PFF created a chart on "time to throw" before last season. The QB's who rank on top are Peyton, Brady, Rogers, etc.....

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/16/qbs-in-focus-time-to-throw/

This thread needs a new title. "analyzing the Bronco's chances"