Wayne: NE offense unlike anything I've played in

Oswlek · Aug 26, 2015

robertweathers said:
Wayne is being paid ~$3m. That is not insurance. That is paid-for production on par with JE11, LaFell and DA's compensation.

I still think you are overstating this. Wayne's compensation is really $2.3mm with a production bonus, which isn't that much for a player with his track record, particularly when you have to pay a slight premium to get him to accept the risk of gameday triggers.

n6249c · Aug 26, 2015

BradyFTW! said:
Not that I'm aware of, which is why FA WRs are always a bit of a gamble here. It's also why of the FA WRs they've targeted recently, they've disproportionately gone after guys who have played in Josh McDaniels offenses before (Lloyd, Amendola).

It's definitely reason for some concern with any FA WR, but some--like LaFell--make the transition fine. Wayne might pick the offense up as quickly as LaFell did, or as poorly as Galloway/Ochocinco did. We don't really know at this point, but considering that he's a notoriously hardworking veteran I'm going to lean toward the former group at least. Cautious optimism, I guess.

That is probably even more true for rookies. At least a veteran FA WR knows what it means to be a pro football player in the NFL, full time job working out, film study, not being the BMOC party boy. That's why drafting any rookie is a crap shoot, you don't know if Johnny Football will be a head case or a star. Then add the learning curve of the Pats' offense, it just makes it that much harder. No wonder we see better results with veteran FA WRs who have shown what they can do at the NFL level.

RobertWeathers · Aug 26, 2015

Oswlek said:
I still think you are overstating this. Wayne's compensation is really $2.3mm with a production bonus, which isn't that much for a player with his track record, particularly when you have to pay a slight premium to get him to accept the risk of gameday triggers.

We'll disagree on this but hear me out.

Forget about track record. He'll be 37 in November and has been injured two consecutive seasons. I think he is pissed off that the Colts let him go and he has something to prove.

Hes getting $1.55m for signing his name and being a good dude. Thats fine but HoF guys like Wayne who have made a ton of money don't look to hang around.

If hes active 16 games thats another $750k

If he catches 65 balls thats another $500k

That is $1.25m or 44% of his total earning potential. That is a significant %.

He is motivated and I don't think Wayne comes here (he says he received better offers but who knows) unless he has a reasonably significant role in the offense. I think the Pats plan to use him plenty.

That is all I am saying.

Triumph · Aug 26, 2015

Uno Cinco

Oswlek · Aug 26, 2015

robertweathers said:
He is motivated and I don't think Wayne comes here (he says he received better offers but who knows) unless he has a reasonably significant role in the offense. I think the Pats plan to use him plenty.

That's fine, but my point is that the Patriots haven't committed much more to him than they would anyone of Wayne's caliber. There may be some discussion around what type of role Reggie can earn, but NE has plenty of wiggle room in case it doesn't work out.

RobertWeathers · Aug 26, 2015

Oswlek said:
That's fine, but my point is that the Patriots haven't committed much more to him than they would anyone of Wayne's caliber. There may be some discussion around what type of role Reggie can earn, but NE has plenty of wiggle room in case it doesn't work out.

I think we agree that it's a calculated gamble by both sides with each putting their money where their mouth is and is a pure win-win if Wayne sees the entire $2.8m.

Froob · Aug 26, 2015

robertweathers said:
Thats true with any QB.

I think it is reasonable to say that Manning has had either an elite WR & very good RB or two elite/very good WRs at his disposal every year of his career.

The same cannot be said for Brady, Montana, Marino, etc.

Some of his Colts defense were vastly underrated. #1 defense in 07 and they gave up a redunkulous just 6 touchdown passes in 08.

RobertWeathers · Aug 26, 2015

Froob said:
Some of his Colts defense were vastly underrated. #1 defense in 07 and they gave up a redunkulous just 6 touchdown passes in 08.

Yep- There was a a great CHFF Brady vs Manning and one of the arguments was that the Pats had better defenses than the Colts. Here is an excerpt.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.co...w-tom-brady-better-than-peyton-manning/31873/

Manning played with really bad defenses in his rookie season of 1998 and again in 2001. Brady played with a strong defense in his debut season of 2001 and a great defense in 2003.

Those first impressions created storylines that linger today: the average fan says Manning's career has been burdened by terrible defenses, while Brady has benefited from the defensive genius of Bill Belichick.

The reality, the Cold, Hard Football Facts, are quite a bit different. The 2005 Colts boasted the No. 2 defense in football, surrendering just 15.4 PPG on their way to a 14-2 record.

The 2005 Colts, with Peyton Manning and an elite defense, went one-and-done in the playoffs, losing 21-18 at home when Manning and the offense struggled to get into gear and, indeed, had produced just a single field goal through three quarters.

Remember the 16-0 Patriots of 2007? Well, it was Peyton Manning's Colts which boasted the league's No. 1 defense that year, surrendering just 16.4 PPG. Those 2007 Colts, which paired Peyton Manning with the best defense in football, also failed to win a single playoff game. The heavily favored Colts lost at home 28-24 to the Chargers.

Manning in that game threw picks on consecutive possessions inside Chargers territory, including one with the ball sitting at the San Diego 4 yard line.

The 2012 Broncos paired Peyton Manning with the league's No. 4 scoring defense; yet again, that team failed to win a single playoff game. Manning threw a pick-six and an ugly overtime INT to seal Denver's fate in a 38-35 loss to the Ravens.

Including this season, Manning has played with seven different defenses that ranked in the Top 8 in scoring. Brady has played with eight different defenses that ranked in the Top 8 in scoring.

Manning's teams have surrendered an average of 21.4 PPG; Brady's teams 18.8 PPG. But Manning has played with Super Bowl-caliber defenses throughout his career, nearly as often as Brady.

Each quarterback has played once with the best defense in football. Brady rode that defense to 15 straight victories and a Super Bowl title during the 2003 season; Manning **** the bed with that defense and went one-and-done in the playoffs during the 2007 season.

Oswlek · Aug 26, 2015

Froob said:
Some of his Colts defense were vastly underrated. #1 defense in 07 and they gave up a redunkulous just 6 touchdown passes in 08.

Underrated, but I wouldn't say vastly so. There is some truth to the fact that they weren't built to hold up when a team could slow down their offense.

Froob · Aug 26, 2015

Oswlek said:
Underrated, but I wouldn't say vastly so. There is some truth to the fact that they weren't built to hold up when a team could slow down their offense.

They had some elite pass defenses tho. I still can't believe that number is right. 6 td passes alllwed will probably never be done again.

RobertWeathers · Aug 26, 2015

God I wish they signed him a few years ago. Says all the right things. A pro's pro.

Now in his 15th season, he'll get to partner with Tom Brady, and he explained on Tuesday that he's looking forward to it.

"I'm excited, I really am," Wayne said on Tuesday. "Again, he's one of the best to ever do it. Tom has definitely welcomed me here. It's outstanding. Not everybody can say they've had this journey that I've had, so I'm excited about it. I'm looking forward to it."

As excited as Wayne is to play with Brady, he understands that it will require plenty of work to make their relationship function properly on the field. When he spoke to Brady after agreeing to a deal in New England, Wayne made sure to tell his new quarterback just how much time he's willing to commit to help contribute to the team's offense.

"I talked to him briefly because I've been so busy studying, but I talked to him," Wayne said. "He was excited to have me here. He's looking forward to us partnering up. I told him, 'Man, I know I'm a little behind. I'm going to do my best to catch up, and during practice whenever you want to go to the side and do something extra, I'm all for it.' "

http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/wayne-brady-im-going-do-my-best-catch

PittPatriot · Aug 26, 2015

Maybe some of the older Patsfans members can recall better...but this reminds me of when Tony Eason signed with the NYJ (and his buddy Ken O'Brien). He was quoted as saying the "Patriots playbook was like a children's book" compared to what he had to learn with the Jets.

Froob · Aug 26, 2015

I think he might end up fairly overpaid by the end of the season but if he contribute to a super bowl its irrelevant. I think he'll have a season something like 32 rec 450 yds 3 TD. Partly because of age and partly because we have so many targets to throw to. If LaFell or Edelman is actually pretty banged up then he could have a big role.

RobertWeathers · Aug 26, 2015

PittPatriot said:
Maybe some of the older Patsfans members can recall better...but this reminds me of when Tony Eason signed with the NYJ (and his buddy Ken O'Brien). He was quoted as saying the "Patriots playbook was like a children's book" compared to what he had to learn with the Jets.

That comment pisses me off.

When they drafted him in 83, Meyer wanted him to win the job but he couldn't learn the offense, command the huddle and couldn't get in/out of plays like Grogan could. In 84 Grogan starts, sucks and Meyer scaled back the offense FOR EASON. With that said, Eason had an outstanding 2nd year but didn't really have control of the team which IMO cost Meyer his job (plus the vets hated him and he had run-ins with **** Steinberg and Pat Sullivan all the time). Berry takes over in mid-84, and expands the playbook in 85. Eason struggles, gets hurt, Grogan kicks ass, gets hurt Eason comes in and they go to almost a pure running game and the rest is history with a scaled back offense on the way to the 85 Super Bowl.

Tony Eason was such a winey, wimpy douchebag. He never put the work in here learning the playbook or in the weight room.

There....I have that off my chest. Eason was Bizzaro Brady.

JarOfMayo51 · Aug 26, 2015

Nunchucks said:
Manning has had success with a number of scrap heap type players.

I can't recall a time in Manning's entire career that he didn't have at least 1 hall of famer at a skill position. Not 1 single year. He was constantly catered to via the draft, from Wrs, to Rbs and TEs.

I'd go so far as to say that he had more help around him than any QB ever. That's not even counting the fact that he had the same offensive coordinator for pretty much his entire career in Indy, so no turnover there, no new concepts or schemes he had to learn and execute.

All in the comfort of a climate controlled Dome at minimum 9 games a year.

Brady > Manning all day long!

Nunchucks · Aug 26, 2015

JarOfMayo51 said:
I can't recall a time in Manning's entire career that he didn't have at least 1 hall of famer at a skill position. Not 1 single year. He was constantly catered to via the draft, from Wrs, to Rbs and TEs.

I'd go so far as to say that he had more help around him than any QB ever. That's not even counting the fact that he had the same offensive coordinator for pretty much his entire career in Indy, so no turnover there, no new concepts or schemes he had to learn and execute.

All in the comfort of a climate controlled Dome at minimum 9 games a year.

Brady > Manning all day long!

I never claimed otherwise. I just see people trying to minimize what Manning has accomplished and I think that is unnecessary.

JarOfMayo51 · Aug 26, 2015

Nunchucks said:
I never claimed otherwise. I just see people trying to minimize what Manning has accomplished and I think that is unnecessary.

I get you, I think a lot of that stems from the heated rivalry and also the media and fan driven QB comparisons of the 2.

Manning gets a lot of praise for putting up stats while to this day people still use the term "dink and dunk" as some sort of suggestive narrative that Brady isn't as good and needs to "dink and dunk" his way to victory which I find incredibly bizarre.

Most everyone will point to their stats when comparing, but Brady has not had the luxury of elite talent his entire career to get his numbers up higher

Oswlek · Aug 26, 2015

JarOfMayo51 said:
Most everyone will point to their stats when comparing, but Brady has not had the luxury of elite talent his entire career to get his numbers up higher

And the funny thing is that the totals are almost entirely due to weather and attempts. Despite most of Manning's indoor games being at home and all of Tom's being on the road, Brady actually has better rate stats for dome games, he just hasn't played in as many of them. Tom's outdoor rate stats are better as well, even after accounting for Manning's incredible 2013 season in Denver.

The remaining differences in totals are because Manning has played almost two additional seasons and has averaged more attempts per season.

Guts · Aug 26, 2015

Manning vs Brady ended and was buried six feet under in Superbowl 49. Only real QB discussion is Brady vs Montana.

JarOfMayo51 · Aug 26, 2015

ArchAngel007 said:
Manning vs Brady ended and was buried six feet under in Superbowl 49. Only real QB discussion is Brady vs Montana.

Yea in most rational minds that's the case, although over on the Colts forum they believe Manning is better and they also truly believe that Andrew Luck is already better than Tom Brady lol!

The drugs must be amazing down in Indianapolis!

Wayne: NE offense unlike anything I've played in

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