Wayne: NE offense unlike anything I've played in

BradyFTW! said:

The general consensus on Tom Moore offenses, at least, is that they mostly boil down to superior execution of relatively simple concepts. So yes, pretty simple when compared to all of the reads that the Pats' offense expects WRs to make.

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OK. I'll take your word for it. Seemed to me that they baked in a lot of complexity and flexibility for PM to operate. I recall old timer Patriot defenders in the 04-08 era saying that they were sometimes very confused when facing those Colt teams.

You know I'm almost pleased that he said that. I read something sometime in the past few weeks about how when players from other teams come to the Pats how often they comment as to how DIFFERENTLY they do things here. It's almost a universal first impression.

It gives me comfort to know this, because in the rush to judgement other teams fans always make to TRY and explain why the Pats win so consistently. How they don't seem to come back to the pack like every other team. THIS is the explanation.

They really DO things differently. Here is a potential HOF WR. The 6th most productive WR in league history so far (IIRC). A guy who has played with 2 potential HOF QB's in 2 very high powered offenses. And he comes here, and takes one look at our offense and says, "WOW, this like nothing I've ever seen before, no comparison".

Rather than take that as a negative, I take it as a guy who suddenly gets a chance to "look behind the curtain" and like an Epiphany finally understands how the Pats are able to do the things they do, and is impressed. And by his statement also knows that he needs to get to work. He understands completely that if he just tries to coast on his years of experience, it isn't going to be enough. In other words, unlike Ocho and Galoway, he "gets it". He knows that there will be a steep learning curve for him to overcome and he's excited by the challenge.

That is a great quote to me on so many levels. So far, so good.

I gotta say, I'm loving Wayne's attitude

Mike Petraglia ‏@Trags 8m8 minutes ago
Reggie Wayne has ‘no time’ to look back on Indy: ‘I know what I can bring to the table’

patfanken said:

You know I'm almost pleased that he said that. I read something sometime in the past few weeks about how when players from other teams come to the Pats how often they comment as to how DIFFERENTLY they do things here. It's almost a universal first impression.

It gives me comfort to know this, because in the rush to judgement other teams fans always make to TRY and explain why the Pats win so consistently. How they don't seem to come back to the pack like every other team. THIS is the explanation.

They really DO things differently. Here is a potential HOF WR. The 6th most productive WR in league history so far (IIRC). A guy who has played with 2 potential HOF QB's in 2 very high powered offenses. And he comes here, and takes one look at our offense and says, "WOW, this like nothing I've ever seen before, no comparison".

Rather than take that as a negative, I take it as a guy who suddenly gets a chance to "look behind the curtain" and like an Epiphany finally understands how the Pats are able to do the things they do, and is impressed. And by his statement also knows that he needs to get to work. He understands completely that if he just tries to coast on his years of experience, it isn't going to be enough. In other words, unlike Ocho and Galoway, he "gets it". He knows that there will be a steep learning curve for him to overcome and he's excited by the challenge.

That is a great quote to me on so many levels. So far, so good.

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Nailed it. Chicken littles, scatter please.

robertweathers said:

OK. I'll take your word for it. Seemed to me that they baked in a lot of complexity and flexibility for PM to operate. I recall old timer Patriot defenders in the 04-08 era saying that they were sometimes very confused when facing those Colt teams.

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DaBronxPats14 said:

I hear ya! Do a Criss Cross with Harrison, Button Hook in front of hydrant, Seriously i'm sure it wasn't a cake walk with PM either. PM demands precision and Wayne should be at least disciplined. True Pats Offense is like no other with multiple schemes, etc. but I see Wayne being All In well at least BB saw something to give him $500 grand Guaranteed up to 3mil incentives.

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The Colts' offense under Moore was extremely precise. When you're called on to run a route, you'd better run that route exactly right. But it was also pretty simple in what it asked WRs to do, like Mariano Rivera striking people out with the same pitch for 15 years straight. He never fooled anyone, because he never really had to.

Unfortunately, the original article that I read from Smart Football a few years ago about it seems to be gone. This Grantland article is well-worth a read, though:

http://grantland.com/features/how-r...-manning-indy-offense-ignited-denver-broncos/

BradyFTW! said:

The general consensus on Tom Moore offenses, at least, is that they mostly boil down to superior execution of relatively simple concepts. So yes, pretty simple when compared to all of the reads that the Pats' offense expects WRs to make.

Click to expand...

This is a great insight. There are 2 major schools of coaching and each have very valid schools of thought. To put in simple terms one school believes in Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS). That execution is paramount. The other is "dazzle them with your bull sh!t". In other words those who believe you out maneuver and gain advantages with your X's and O's. ALL offensive and defensive systems fall somewhere in between those 2 schools of thought.

Tony Dungy and Tom Moore were strong believers in systems that valued execution over artifice. That's why Wayne ALWAYS lined up on the left side. They believed that when their players saw the game from the most familiar places their execution would make whatever alignment advantage you hoped to get moot. This goes back to the Johnny U/Raymond Berry combo, who defied you to beat their execution even if you knew what was coming.

I know its not sexy or satisfy our desires to play chess with football players, but it's a been a very successful philosophy that has created a lot of winning teams for Dungy and Moore. It also makes you better appreciate why people can't simply recreate what BB has managed to do very easily. You see, BB has made it possible through SOME method of teaching and language, get HIS players to the point where they can consistently be moved all around, from week to week, and STILL execute to a high level. Maybe not to the level that the guy who does the same thing over and over, but high enough that the advantage he gets by alignment trumps the extra execution you get from repetition.

Again, as I've said over and over, what BB does is easy to explain, but very hard to execute on the field. It also explains the BB/Josh connection, since McDaniel's offensive system has evolved much in the same way BB's defensive system (as run now by Matty P), did. Some magical combination of simplicity of communications and complexity of design woven together to great success.

"The quarterback isn't flailing around like a jackass before every snap and screaming "Omaha." This is totally different."

Lunatic hack Gregg Doyle






Robert Mathis' response

ROBERT MATHIS The1stVerified account‏@RobertMathis98
@indystar is this for real??? Did you really just do this?

patfanken said:

This is a great insight. There are 2 major schools of coaching and each have very valid schools of thought. To put in simple terms one school believes in Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS). That execution is paramount. The other is "dazzle them with your bull sh!t". In other words those who believe you out maneuver and gain advantages with your X's and O's. ALL offensive and defensive systems fall somewhere in between those 2 schools of thought.

Tony Dungy and Tom Moore were strong believers in systems that valued execution over artifice. That's why Wayne ALWAYS lined up on the left side. They believed that when their players saw the game from the most familiar places their execution would make whatever alignment advantage you hoped to get moot. This goes back to the Johnny U/Raymond Berry combo, who defied you to beat their execution even if you knew what was coming.

I know its not sexy or satisfy our desires to play chess with football players, but it's a been a very successful philosophy that has created a lot of winning teams for Dungy and Moore. It also make you understand why people can't simply do what BB has done very easily. You see, BB has made it possible through SOME method of teaching and language, get HIS players to the point where they can consistently be moved all around, from week to week, and STILL execute to a high level. Maybe not to the level that the guy who does the same thing over and over, but high enough that the advantage he gets by alignment trumps the extra execution you get from repetition.

Again, as I've said over and over, what BB does is easy to explain, but very hard to execute on the field. It also explains the BB/Josh connection, since McDaniel's offensive system has evolved much in the same way BB's defensive system (as run now by Matty P), did. Some magical combination of simplicity of communications and complexity of design woven together to great success.

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Nailed it. FWIW, I think the Colts' philosophy also created a certain amount of rigidity that has hurt them in close.playoff games. If they can't beat you through pure execution, then they're just not going to beat you period.

When the Pats are failing to win on execution, you'll still see them hang around and/or swing the game by out-strategizing the opponent. Continuing the baseball analogy, they can fool you with an off-speed pitch. Probably my favorite example of this is the divisional round game vs. the Ravens this year. Let's be honest, the Pats probably 'should' have lost that game. But before you know it, Belichick's unveiled a formation so bizarre that John Harbaugh couldn't even understand it. And he didn't pull it out of his ass, they'd clearly been practicing it. Then Edelman throws a TD pass to Amendola, the Ravens are thoroughly demoralized, and next thing you know the Pats get the W and are headed to the AFCCG. That result could not have happened if they'd relied on execution alone.

So I definitely agree with the Dungy/Moore theory that simplicity has a ton of advantages. It really does, not the least of which is that any newcomer can quickly grasp his role in your scheme. You never saw a good player fail in Indy because he couldn't figure out what he was supposed to do. But whatever benefits you gain there, you trade off in malleability, and ability to scheme your way into swinging close games.

BradyFTW! said:

The Colts' offense under Moore was extremely precise, but it was also pretty simple in what it asked WRs to do.

Unfortunately, the original article that I read from Smart Football a few years ago about it seems to be gone. This Grantland article is well-worth a read, though:

http://grantland.com/features/how-r...-manning-indy-offense-ignited-denver-broncos/

The enduring wonder of the Manning-Moore offense was not only its incredible success, but the way that success came about: by running the fewest play concepts of any offense in the league. Despite having one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time under center, the Colts eschewed the conventional wisdom of continually adding volume to their offense in the form of countless formations and shifts.

“I can give [you] the playbook,” said former Manning backup quarterback Jim Sorgi in 2010, Manning’s last full season in Indianapolis. “There is not that many teams they’re going to play who don’t know what they’re going to do. It’s all about execution. Their coaches are like, ‘We’ll tell the other team what we’re doing. They got to stop us.’ That’s what they do. That’s what they’re all about. And not many teams have been able to stop them yet.”

Sorgi was not kidding. Out-executing opponents is easier with no. 18 and the veterans around him, but the offense Moore developed for Manning drew its strength from its simplicity. By using a small number of personnel groups — typically either three wide receivers and a tight end, or two wide receivers and two tight ends — it limited the number of possible responses from the defense and made it easier for Manning to diagnose its weak spots from both a speedy no-huddle (used whenever a defense tried to substitute) and a regular pace of play.

The small number of plays essentially put the full offense at Manning’s disposal at any time, and by combining few formations with few plays, both veterans and newcomers to the offense had their acclimation eased by the small number of tasks. There were just a handful of routes, typically from one side of the field or the other, run just the way Manning liked them. Despite media intimations to the contrary, the most sophisticated quarterback in the NFL ran what was arguably its simplest offense. It also just happened to be the best.
​

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Looks like this has more of the info you were referring to.

https://understandingthetrickeratio...understanding-the-indianapolis-colts-offense/

Makes me appreciate even more Brady's level of aptitude and intelligence to run the Pats' offense.

Austin Collie caught on pretty quickly. I'm sure Wayne will be fine.

So are you saying that less than 24 hours as a Patriot player, Reggie Wayne doesn't know the playbook backwards and forward with all the presnap adjustments? I can't wait until they cut this bum.

JMC00 said:

Lunatic hack Gregg Doyle

Robert Mathias response

ROBERT MATHIS The1stVerified account‏@RobertMathis98
@indystar is this for real??? Did you really just do this?

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I'm glad Doyel is broadcasting his stupidity for even the local fanbase (and team) to see.

JMC00 said:

Lunatic hack Gregg Doyle

Robert Mathias response

ROBERT MATHIS The1stVerified account‏@RobertMathis98
@indystar is this for real??? Did you really just do this?

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He does realize that the Colts chose not to sign him and they the chose the sign Andre Johnson?

Doyel is terrible.

Galeb said:

Are there any offenses that have post snap reads and adjustments as complex and numerous as the Pats? I don't think many even come close with pre-snap reads and adjustments.

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Not that I'm aware of, which is why FA WRs are always a bit of a gamble here. It's also why of the FA WRs they've targeted recently, they've disproportionately gone after guys who have played in Josh McDaniels offenses before (Lloyd, Amendola).

It's definitely reason for some concern with any FA WR, but some--like LaFell--make the transition fine. Wayne might pick the offense up as quickly as LaFell did, or as poorly as Galloway/Ochocinco did. We don't really know at this point, but considering that he's a notoriously hardworking veteran I'm going to lean toward the former group at least. Cautious optimism, I guess.

robertweathers said:

He does realize that the Colts chose not to sign him and they the chose the sign Andre Johnson?

Doyel is terrible.

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They also chose to draft another WR in the 1st round, sign Vincent Brown and sign cris carter's kid to a $2m deal.

But ya he's a traitor for signing with a team that has twice offered him contracts when he has been on the market.

Maybe if that druggie owner and doofus of a gm showed a tiny bit of loyalty, Wayne would have taken a deal that worked for the colts even with signing Andre Johnson.

JMC00 said:

Lunatic hack Gregg Doyle

Robert Mathis' response

ROBERT MATHIS The1stVerified account‏@RobertMathis98
@indystar is this for real??? Did you really just do this?

Click to expand...

Gregg Doyel acts like a tough guy but he is the penultimate cry-baby/wuss. Ron Borges would kick his ass.....and I wouldn't root for either one!

Side note: all this discussion about relative complexity of offenses is why I laugh at anyone who claims that Manning is asked to do more than Brady. Brady runs the most complicated offense in the NFL, while Manning runs among the simplest. The people who claim that Manning's operating on a more cerebral level apparently mistake frantic gesticulating at the LOS for complexity.

Yell Omaha 20 or 30 times and everyone starts assuming you're a genius.

BradyFTW! said:

Nailed it. FWIW, I think the Colts' philosophy also created a certain amount of rigidity that has hurt them in close playoff matches at time. If they can't beat you through pure execution, then they're just not going to beat you period.

When the Pats are failing to win on execution, you'll still see them hang around and/or swing the game based on out-strategizing the opponent. Probably my favorite example of this is the divisional round game vs. the Ravens this year. Let's be honest, the Pats probably 'should' have lost that game. But before you know it, Belichick's unveiled a formation so bizarre that John Harbaugh couldn't even understand it. And he didn't pull it out of his ass, they'd clearly been practicing it. Then Edelman throws a TD pass to Amendola, the Ravens are thoroughly demoralized, and before you know it the Pats have won a game that they absolutely would not have won on execution alone.

So I definitely agree with the Dungy/Moore theory that simplicity has a ton of advantages. It really does, not the least of which is that any newcomer can quickly grasp his role in your scheme. You never saw a good player fail in Indy because he couldn't figure out what he was supposed to do. But whatever benefits you gain there, you trade off in malleability, and ability to scheme your way into swinging close games.

Click to expand...

I am still stunned by what BB has been able to accomplish with HIS system of communication, semantics and coaching. It CAN'T be something that is easy to copy, otherwise everyone would be doing it. Its frustrating in one sense because it is so hard to put into words that make sense to the layman. And they are so insular over at Foxboro that we will literally have to "wait for the book" before we have any hope of getting some clarity on what he is doing.

I find it fascinating. One of my fantasies, is that I win the lottery, give a lot of money to the Patriots Charitable Foundation, I am rewarded by being able to watch the staff put together a game plan, AND during that week I spot a tendency by one of the opponents' offensive players. But back in real life, I would be so cool to see how they get it done each week.

BTW- I'm guessing that a key factor in being able to be so complex and different each week, is getting the right players. And it might explain a bit of Bill's "eccentricities" (to put it kindly) in his draft process.

Although it was pretty simple, Wayne's role also changed over time. From strictly left side, to either side after Harrison retired, to mostly in the slot the last two years. I think he has way more between the ears than Ochocinco