Early, But Who Is Worth the IR - DTR Designation?

Froob said:

I don't know who you had in mind, but people are talking about using it on Ruufus and Roberts who haven't proven yet (not saying I think they suck, it's been positve but very small sample size) they can play in this league. I think you're right on the money if it's a guy we know can contribute.

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I'm talking in general, I have no idea what BB thinks he can get out of those types. If he had visions of Roberts playing a significant role then great, use it, if this was always going to be a development year, that's different.

Froob said:

I don't know who you had in mind, but people are talking about using it on Ruufus and Roberts who haven't proven yet (not saying I think they suck, it's been positve but very small sample size) they can play in this league. I think you're right on the money if it's a guy we know can contribute.

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Yeah, I don't see Belichick using the designation on a player with no experience and just has potential. Now if people were saying Scott Chandler or Stork (assuming they were going to miss that much time), then I could see Belichick using the designation on a player currently injured.

@Rob0729 You might've missed my earlier question. If someone on the roster happens to get injured, why do they necessarily have to go to DTR? Can't they just remain active on the roster, until they make a recovery?

BelichickFan said:

I'm talking in general, I have no idea what BB thinks he can get out of those types. If he had visions of Roberts playing a significant role then great, use it, if this was always going to be a development year, that's different.

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The second that Roberts got a long term injury, Belichick likely has determined this to be a red shirt year. You cannot expect a rookie to miss the first two months of the season and have an impact in his rookie year.

Rob0729 said:

Not to worrry, I get it just fine. I know how Belichick uses the designation. He doesn't use it as a way to stash a 54th man on the roster. He uses it to avoid putting an impact player on long term IR because he values roster spots too much to tie up a roster spot for two months waiting for them to return.

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You are VASTLY over rating Shiancoe. As this thread will remind you :

http://www.boston.com/community/for...lls-we-need-and-healthy-scratched/100/6458540

I can't believe you consider him to have been an impact player.

Chiuba E. Obele said:

@Rob0729 You might've missed my earlier question. If someone on the roster happens to get injured, why do they necessarily have to go to DTR? Can't they just remain active on the roster, until they make a recovery?

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He answered the question clearly.

Rob0729 said:

You keep on asking me to give a list of players worthy of using the designation that Belichick didn't use it on

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No, I have simply asked for support for this assertion:

Rob0729 said:

Belichick disagrees with you because he has saved it the last two years and used it on starters who got injured in the first few weeks of the season.

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This is not a statement that can be simply tossed out as fact. My question about players worthy that he didn't use it on is, as far as I can tell, the best way to support it. If you have another, feel free to provide it.

Rob0729 said:

many people have said that it is stupid not to use the designation to keep a 54th player.

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You continue to overlook the most important distinction: the first player who deserves it. Again, the question about Roberts is not whether Bill would slap the designation on whatever monkey gets hurt in the preseason simply to get an extra roster spot, it is whether he meets the threshold. I suspect that the people you are arguing with don't even feel that Roberts deserves it. I know I don't.

Chiuba E. Obele said:

@Rob0729 You might've missed my earlier question. If someone on the roster happens to get injured, why do they necessarily have to go to DTR? Can't they just remain active on the roster, until they make a recovery?

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Sure. But they take up a roster spot. Belichick rarely if ever will tie up a roster spot on a player who is out for two months. I can't think of one. If he was ever going to do it, it would only be for elite players like Brady and Gronk.

Oswlek said:

No, I have simply asked for support for this assertion:



This is not a statement that can be simply tossed out as fact. My question about players worthy that he didn't use it on is, as far as I can tell, the best way to support it. If you have another, feel free to provide it.



You continue to overlook the most important distinction: the first player who deserves it. Again, the question about Roberts is not whether Bill would slap the designation on whatever monkey gets hurt in the preseason simply to get an extra roster spot, it is whether he meets the threshold. I suspect that the people you are arguing with don't even feel that Roberts deserves it. I know I don't.

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A player who deserves the IR DTR is a PROVEN starter or impact role player. Even a seasoned veteran will take weeks to get back to football shape after a two months layoff, an unproven rookie will likely take much longer and still have a typical rookie learning curve to deal with.

Rob0729 said:

A player who deserves the IR DTR is a PROVEN starter or impact role player. Even a seasoned veteran will take weeks to get back to football shape after a two months layoff, an unproven rookie will likely take much longer and still have a typical rookie learning curve to deal with.

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When have I said otherwise?

Oswlek said:

When have I said otherwise?

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But you keep on asking me for examples of these type of players who Belichick didn't IR DTR just to keep the designation into the season.

Rob0729 said:

But you keep on asking me for examples of these type of players who Belichick didn't IR DTR just to keep the designation into the season.

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No, you continue to misunderstand and misinterpret my request.

Oswlek said:

No, you continue to misunderstand and misinterpret my request.

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You are asking me to prove something that cannot be proven. You are basically asking a murder suspect that lives alone and was at home the night of the murder for a witness who can prove he is at home.

The fact that Belichick didn't use the designation the last two years until players got injured supports my assertion that he doesn't use it for a 54th man on the roster and only uses it for impact players.

But if you want a potential player that he didn't use the IR DTR tag on would be Adrian Wilson who was expected to be an impact player in 2013 (many thought he might get that designation).

Rob0729 said:

A player who deserves the IR DTR is a PROVEN starter or impact role player. Even a seasoned veteran will take weeks to get back to football shape after a two months layoff, an unproven rookie will likely take much longer and still have a typical rookie learning curve to deal with.

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@Rob0729 Okay, I think I'm starting to get what you're saying here. But I still have to wonder if there's any "proven starter" who isn't gonna be ready for opening day. LaFell, Jones, Chandler, and Fletcher seem to be ready to take the field on Day 1. So who else of value deserves to be placed on DTR? Better yet, why leave that spot vacant at all?

Rob0729 said:

You are asking me to prove something that cannot be proven.

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If you think it cannot be proven, then - again - why did you make this statement?

Rob0729 said:

Belichick disagrees with you because he has saved it the last two years and used it on starters who got injured in the first few weeks of the season.

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If you can't show who he chose not to designate, then there was never any "saving" and your assertion is unsupported. It really is that simple and I'm not asking for anything that your comment doesn't convey you already have.

If, on the other hand, you really mean that Bill chose to delay using the designation until he had a player he deemed worthy of it then you are saying the exact same thing that BF and I have said all along. The only question at this point is whether Roberts meets the threshold, to which my answer is "no."

Chiuba E. Obele said:

So who else of value deserves to be placed on DTR? Better yet, why leave that spot vacant at all?

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The first question is the answer to the second. If you don't deem anyone who is currently injured to be of value for the designation you wait until the inevitable injury to someone who is. As soon as the first person who meets your criteria gets an applicable injury, you slap it on them.

Chiuba E. Obele said:

@Rob0729 Okay, I think I'm starting to get what you're saying here. But I still have to wonder if there's any "proven starter" who isn't gonna be ready for opening day. LaFell, Jones, Chandler, and Fletcher seem to be ready to take the field on Day 1. So who else of value deserves to be placed on DTR? Better yet, why leave that spot vacant at all?

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I am just saying it is better risking leaving the designation vacant just in case a starter gets injured early rather than to use it on a bottom of the roster guy just to use it. It is best to use the designation. I am saying the risk of keeping it for an impact player and never using it is better than using it on a lower level player and then needing it and not having it for an impact player in the first few weeks of the season.

Oswlek said:

The first question is the answer to the second. If you don't deem anyone who is currently injured to be of value for the designation you wait until the inevitable injury to someone who is. As soon as the first person who meets your criteria gets an applicable injury, you slap it on them.

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And I never said anything different. In fact, that in fact, that is what I am arguing.

What I am arguing against that you should look at it as a 54th man on the roster and you should use it rather than holding onto it. Not every player is worthy of that designation. I would say on most teams, there are only about 15-20 players at most who are worthy of that designation. I might even argue it is closer to 10-15.

If there is a player going into the season worthy of that designation, they will slap it on him after week one assuming someone more worthy doesn't get injured week one. If there is no one worthy of it, they will hold onto the designation until if and when someone worthy needs it. That is all I am arguing.

Rob0729 said:

I am just saying it is better risking leaving the designation vacant just in case a starter gets injured early than to use it on a bottom of the roster guy just to use it. It is best to use the designation. I am saying the risk of keeping it for an impact player and never using it is better than using it on a lower level player and then needing it and not having it for an impact player in the first few weeks of the season.

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One last question, just for clarity's sake...assuming an impact player goes down early in the season, and are slapped with a DTR designation, does that open up their roster spot for someone else?

Rob0729 said:

And I never said anything different. In fact, that in fact, that is what I am arguing.

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I know, which is why I kept pointing out that you were arguing against points that weren't being made. What you bolded is precisely what BF was saying all along.

Rob0729 said:

I would say on most teams, there are only about 15-20 players at most who are worthy of that designation. I might even argue it is closer to 10-15

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We would disagree here, but again, that is a threshold discussion, not a logistical one.