Early, But Who Is Worth the IR - DTR Designation?

BelichickFan said:

Nope.

If you don't use it you've lost the chance to carry an injured guy, a 54th player, for free. Again, if the player is so low on the roster you don't mind losing him for the year, by all means, IR him. But if you don't want to IR him you have to carry him on the roster. Whether it's Tom Brady or Brandon Bolden, if you're going to carry him on the roster go ahead and make use of the 54th spot. If not you may waste it. It's value is a free roster spot, not the quality of player occupying it.

The answer to the question is "anyone who will return later in the season who is good enough to be carried on the 53 until he returns".

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Exactly. There is no heirarchy, it is just two groups; those that are worth using the designation on and those that aren't. As soon as one of the first gets a relevant injury, you use it no matter who it is.

BelichickFan said:

Nope.

If you don't use it you've lost the chance to carry an injured guy, a 54th player, for free. Again, if the player is so low on the roster you don't mind losing him for the year, by all means, IR him. But if you don't want to IR him you have to carry him on the roster. Whether it's Tom Brady or Brandon Bolden, if you're going to carry him on the roster go ahead and make use of the 54th spot. If not you may waste it. It's value is a free roster spot, not the quality of player occupying it.

The answer to the question is "anyone who will return later in the season who is good enough to be carried on the 53 until he returns".

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Great post!

Edelman and Dobson are healthy enough to play, but are being kept off the field as a precaution. Assuming Chandler and LaFell are ready for Day 1, who's your leading candidate for DTR?

I say Roberts. The comparison to Butler is apt - rookie who quickly became a standout in training camp. Could give us a CB option for man-coverage

Chiuba E. Obele said:

I say Roberts. The comparison to Butler is apt - rookie who quickly became a standout in training camp. Could give us a CB option for man-coverage

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Depends on when he's expected back but if he'll be ready by mid season he'd be a good choice. By week 8 we'll almost certainly have a CB injured or not playing well.

BelichickFan said:

That makes no sense. You're hoping to waste a free roster spot.

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Makes perfect sense. Say week one you put a bottom of the roster player like Roberts on the IR designated for return and Juliamn Edelman gets an injury week 2 that forces him out for eight weeks. Then you wasted the IR anyway. You use the IR designated for return spot on a top 15 of the roster player not the 43rd man on the roster.

Rob0729 said:

Makes perfect sense. Say week one you put a bottom of the roster player like Roberts on the IR designated for return and Juliamn Edelman gets an injury week 2 that forces him out for eight weeks. Then you wasted the IR anyway. You use the IR designated for return spot on a top 15 of the roster player not the 43rd man on the roster.

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Can the DTR spot be left vacant for the season?

BelichickFan said:

Nope.

If you don't use it you've lost the chance to carry an injured guy, a 54th player, for free. Again, if the player is so low on the roster you don't mind losing him for the year, by all means, IR him. But if you don't want to IR him you have to carry him on the roster. Whether it's Tom Brady or Brandon Bolden, if you're going to carry him on the roster go ahead and make use of the 54th spot. If not you may waste it. It's value is a free roster spot, not the quality of player occupying it.

The answer to the question is "anyone who will return later in the season who is good enough to be carried on the 53 until he returns".

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And say both Edelman and Hightower (for example) both get long term injuries. Either the Pats have to IR one or both because they wasted the IR designated for return on a bottom of the roster guy or they go most of the season with a 51 man roster while they use roster spots on starters who aren't going to play until late November or December.

The IR designated for return is there for a real contributor who is going to be out a long time and you are not forced to decide to either lose a roster spot for two months or permanently IRing the player for the year.

Using it to stash a bottom of the roster guy on the shelf until November and risk never playing them all year anyway is short sighted. Say they put Roberts on that designation. He is unlikely to ever play this year anyway because as a rookie, it is doubtful he would make the active roster.

It is better to gamble never using the designation than use it as an extra roster spot and then risk that a starter gets injured and they actually need it for an Edelman, Gronk, Hightower, etc. and not have it. No way does Belichick put a bottom of the roster guy on this designation.

Chiuba E. Obele said:

Can the DTR spot be left vacant for the season?

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Sure. I don't think every team used it last year. The Pats didn't use it until September 27th last year when they put Siliga on it.

Rob0729 said:

No way does Belichick put a bottom of the roster guy on this designation.

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Riiiiiiiight.

http://www.patspulpit.com/2012/9/5/...on-injured-reserve-with-designation-to-return

As expected, to make room for the signing of Michael Hoomanawanui, the New England Patriots have placed tight end Visanthe Shiancoe on injured reserve, with a designation to return.

Chiuba E. Obele said:

Can the DTR spot be left vacant for the season?

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I pray its vacant

I say no way is Roberts going to be put on the IR designated for return. He is a rookie and there is little chance after missing half the preseason and the first ten games that he would see the field. If he isn't going to return soon into the season, he will be given the traditional IR designation.

Rob0729 said:

I say no way is Roberts going to be put on the IR designated for return. He is a rookie and there is little chance after missing half the preseason and the first ten games that he would see the field. If he isn't going to return soon into the season, he will be given the traditional IR designation.

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That's entirely possible, we don't know how soon they think Roberts will be good enough to contribute. But as soon as a real contributor is out but not for the season, they'll use it unless they simply don't need the roster spot. This concept of saving it is ridiculous.

BelichickFan said:

Riiiiiiiight.

http://www.patspulpit.com/2012/9/5/...on-injured-reserve-with-designation-to-return

As expected, to make room for the signing of Michael Hoomanawanui, the New England Patriots have placed tight end Visanthe Shiancoe on injured reserve, with a designation to return.

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He didn't work out, but Shiancoe was supposed to be a decent contributor as the #3 TE. Not a huge contributor, but that was the first year of the designation and Belichick has used it differently since the first year.

The last two years, Belichick carried it into the season and used it on Shane Vereen after he broke his wrist week one and Sealver Siliga when he injured his knee a few weeks in.

BelichickFan said:

That's entirely possible, we don't know how soon they think Roberts will be good enough to contribute. But as soon as a real contributor is out but not for the season, they'll use it unless they simply don't need the roster spot. This concept of saving it is ridiculous.

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Belichick disagrees with you because he has saved it the last two years and used it on starters who got injured in the first few weeks of the season.

Rob0729 said:

He didn't work out, but Shiancoe was supposed to be a decent contributor as the #3 TE. Not a huge contributor, but that was the first year of the designation and Belichick has used it differently since the first year.

The last two years, Belichick carried it into the season and used it on Shane Vereen after he broke his wrist week one and Sealver Siliga when he injured his knee a few weeks in.

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Whatever, I give up. The bottom line is you need someone out multiple weeks but not all season and someone who you would carry on the 53 (not cut or IR). And you need to be in a roster situation where you really need someone for that last spot. Once that criteria is met, you use it.

For those looking for background on what DTR means, this article is very useful

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/...hat_it_means_to_giants_ol_geoff_schwartz.html

Rob0729 said:

Belichick disagrees with you because he has saved it the last two years and used it on starters who got injured in the first few weeks of the season.

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If Roberts was due to make the roster in the first place (and he certainly seems to have been trending in that direction) then why not give him the option of returning?

EDIT: Plus, getting time on the field is crucial in improving a rookie's development

BelichickFan said:

Whatever, I give up. The bottom line is you need someone out multiple weeks but not all season and someone who you would carry on the 53 (not cut or IR). And you need to be in a roster situation where you really need someone for that last spot. Once that criteria is met, you use it.

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I endorse you giving up. I will point to 2013 to prove you wrong. Shane Vereen broke his wrist week one that year. If they used the IR designated to return to keep a bottom of the roster guy as the 54th player, the Pats would have been forced to IR Vereen all together. They couldn't have kept him on the roster while he took ten weeks to heal. Belichick doesn't do that other than maybe for Gronk or Brady.

Oswil, Beli, Rob, I appreciate all that you do to keep us informed with these details.

Chiuba E. Obele said:

For those looking for background on what DTR means, this article is very useful

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/...hat_it_means_to_giants_ol_geoff_schwartz.html



If Roberts was due to make the roster in the first place (and he certainly seems to have been trending in that direction) then why not give him the option of returning?

EDIT: Plus, getting time on the field is crucial in improving a rookie's development

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Why? Because if he he follows the Malcolm Butler's rookie year, he won't even be guaranteed to be activated every Sunday especially after missing half the season on IR. If they use the IR designated to return on him and say Edelman gets a injury early in the season that shelves him for 8-10 weeks. The Pats will forced to IR Edelman for the year because Belichick doesn't use a roster spot like that. Who is more important to this team? Edelman or Roberts? Or Hightower or Roberts? Or Collins or Roberts? Or Stork or Roberts? Or Chandler or Roberts? I can think of at least a dozen of players that if they get injured in week one or two and the Pats are forced to IR them, people will be questioning why they used the designated to return status on Roberts or another bottom of the roster guy.

Roberts is an unknown commodity and even if he turns into a great player, he is unlikely to do it this year if he misses half the season. The last two seasons, Belichick used the IR designated to return designation on starters who could contribute and were needed later in the season.

Rob0729 said:

I endorse you giving up. I will point to 2013 to prove you wrong. Shane Vereen broke his wrist week one that year. If they used the IR designated to return to keep a bottom of the roster guy as the 54th player, the Pats would have been forced to IR Vereen all together. They couldn't have kept him on the roster while he took ten weeks to heal. Belichick doesn't do that other than maybe for Gronk or Brady.

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There has got to be a list of players who are important enough to justify using it on. The thought of using it on a dime a dozen role player is silly in my opinion. Belichick knows that these players come and go all the time. A starter or heavy rotational player however, is obviously much more important. I'd be shocked if he used it on a rookie like Roberts.

Rob0729 said:

If they use the IR designated to return on him and say Edelman gets a injury early in the season that shelves him for 8-10 weeks. The Pats will forced to IR Edelman for the year because Belichick doesn't use a roster spot like that. Who is more important to this team? Edelman or Roberts? Or Hightower or Roberts? Or Collins or Roberts? Or Stork or Roberts? Or Chandler or Roberts?

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Can you explain this a little more to me? If either Hightower, Collins, Stork, or Chandler got injured, why couldn't they just remain on the roster. Is Bill required to put them on IR if and when an injury occurs?