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Opinion: The NFL thinks Berman is bluffing


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looks like manion spoke for me.

the NFL filed to confirm the decision. that wasnt going to be dismissed. when the NFLPA came and argued (in writing) there was an impartial arbitrator and that due process was denied the judge was going to listen.

so again...you dont know what you are talking about.

LOL! Yeah, I guess I will just go to the remedial class with idiots like Michael McCann, Daniel Wallach, Steph Stradley, and all the other idiots who I get my information from.

Again, the judge is hearing two suits. You do realize that the NFLPA refiled the suit they filed in MN in NYC and that suit is still open? They didn't just file a response in writing to the NFL's suit. Both sides filed opposing suits and then each side filed 15 page briefs to argue their cases. You clearly do not understand this.

I know exactly what I am talking about because I at least know something that you clearly do not. There is a suit and a counter suit in front of Judge Berman.
 
I do not believe the NFL thinks Berman is bluffing. I think the NFL (aka Goodell) doesn't care whether he is bluffing. Goodell has to see Brady suspended or, otherwise, have it forced on him by a higher power that Brady isn't suspended. Goodell cannot afford to willingly erase the suspension, period. Therefore the NFL is ALL in on this case unless Brady accepts a suspension (and probably a few other things) via this window dressing arbitration.
 
top lawyer who appears on wEEI. came on this morning and said it wasnt surprising that the facts of case were brought up by judge, not just the law. according to the expert robo this was a big win for nflpa and brady because this usually doesnt happen...just doesnt get the process and talks like hes an expert...laughable


LOL! I am quoting Harvard educated Michael McCann. I am quoting Daniel Wallach http://www.bplegal.com/dwallach

I am quoting Steph Stradley. http://www.stradleylaw.com/blog/


But if people want to listen to someone who writes like a second grader, they should listen to you.

Harry Manion is a very good attorney, but so are the people I listen to. And their information conflicts with Manion's.

I try to educate myself with multiple opinions. I read all the three lawyers I mentioned Twitter accounts and blogs frequently on this subject as well as others to educate myself. You hear one interview and you think you are Matlock.
 
LOL! Yeah, I guess I will just go to the remedial class with idiots like Michael McCann, Daniel Wallach, Steph Stradley, and all the other idiots who I get my information from.

Again, the judge is hearing two suits. You do realize that the NFLPA refiled the suit they filed in MN in NYC and that suit is still open? They didn't just file a response in writing to the NFL's suit. Both sides filed opposing suits and then each side filed 15 page briefs to argue their cases. You clearly do not understand this.

I know exactly what I am talking about because I at least know something that you clearly do not. There is a suit and a counter suit in front of Judge Berman.

ok...you know...right.

whether there are one or two or three suits it doesnt matter. the main question is whether there was an unfair process. thats it. thats brady's only chance. you can say there are two suits, fine. the question is should he confirm this decision because there arent extraordinary circumstances to overturn or do extraordinary circumstances exists. you cant get to that determination without knowing the facts.

of course those questions were going to be asked.

your initial point is that it was such a big win that they got to the point where they heard these facts, and the case wasnt dismissed. these are questions that had to be asked.

they arent going to dismiss a request to confirm a decision. when the nflpa came in and said, hold on this whole process was egregiously unfair. they were going to be heard
 
What's highly unusual here is that there is no monetary compromise that makes sense. For the NFL and Commissioner Scheisskopf, it's about the preserving what they believe to be the absolute authority that the CBA grants them to adjudicate player discipline matters. For Brady, it's about pride, legacy and reputation. There's no logical place to split this particular baby.

I had said (somewhat in jest) that the fear public testimony by Scheisskopf might motivate the league to settle but since the dopey commissioner has gotten a hall pass for next Wednesday, it looks like the battle of wills can only continue.
 
i dont think bluff is correct word by op. i think his/her point may be the judge is putting on the appearance he sides with the NFLPA, while in reality, hes just asking the NFL tough questions to try to get them to settle. which makes sense, since it seems from all reports the NFL has been less willing to budge on their offer

Normally I'd agree with that but Berman asked them repeatedly, "What evidence do you have?" and they repeatedly answered that they have nothing. Article 46 may allow the Commissioner to play judge, jury and executioner, but he can't do it with no evidence.
 
ok...you know...right.

whether there are one or two or three suits it doesnt matter. the main question is whether there was an unfair process. thats it. thats brady's only chance. you can say there are two suits, fine. the question is should he confirm this decision because there arent extraordinary circumstances to overturn or do extraordinary circumstances exists. you cant get to that determination without knowing the facts.

of course those questions were going to be asked.

your initial point is that it was such a big win that they got to the point where they heard these facts, and the case wasnt dismissed. these are questions that had to be asked.

they arent going to dismiss a request to confirm a decision. when the nflpa came in and said, hold on this whole process was egregiously unfair. they were going to be heard

First, Brady and the NFLPA are arguing multiple counts (4 main counts and many, many more sub counts) and all he has to do is win one of the counts or subcounts to win the suit. They are all about the process, but you make it sound like it is one argument that the process is flawed or it isn't. It is much more complex than that. Kessler wrote a brilliant suit that attacks the process in many ways from the independent investigation that wasn't independent to unfairness in Goodell's ruling to no prior notice of a penalty to the punishments being extradoninary to an existing verdicts against the league bars Goodell from punishing Brady in this way.

Second, if "of course" those questions were going to be asked, why were all the legal analysts stunned that Berman addressed the facts of the Wells Report when everyone thought it was going to be about process.

Third, Judge Berman confirmed with the NFL and Brady at the beginning of the hearing that litigation would begin right away. He did not do that after the questions.

Fourth, I did not say it was a big win that he asked the questions (although many legal analysts would say it was including the ones I mentioned). I said it part of a lot of things that went Brady's way and against Goodell and probably the biggest in that Berman said he would hear the case even though negotiations would continue because they are on a fast track (another Brady win).

Fifth, I never said they would dismiss the request to confirm the decision. That is the suit. Judge Berman will preside over both the suit and countersuit at once and rule on both at once. You clearly are not grasping that. There are two separate lawsuits in front of Judge Berman. Because they are opposing views of the same case, they are joined and heard the same time. Judge Berman has agree to rule on both cases. That is a big win for Brady because he could dismiss the NFLPA's and rubber stamp the NFL's claim without even hearing any arguments. He didn't do that.

Where you are confused is that the judge could easily dismiss the NFL's request to confirm the ruling for the same reason he could dismiss the NFLPA's counter claim - because he does not want to get involved in arbitration under a CBA. He is under no obligation to confirm Goodell's request for confirmation.
 
the main question is whether there was an unfair process. thats it. thats brady's only chance.

The above portion in bold is incorrect.
 
Or maybe you should take a remedial english class and learn how to write in complete sentences, use proper grammar, and how to capitalize. I love how people try to act mentally superior than someone else on a message board while making writing mistakes a third grader wouldn't make.

just to respond to this ridiculous statement. im sorry that i do not treat this message board as a term paper expecting a grade. so if my grammar, capitalization and sentences arent perfect...i dont really give a crap. thats just silly
 
The above portion in bold is incorrect.


and to rob0 too...gotta go now but...

we were talking about the point about the judge getting to the facts...i meant thats brady's only chance to win if we are talking about the facts of the case (not the legal arguments)..

much fun gentlemen.
 
Actually, read the quote I took from McCann's article. I did not take the quote out of context/ You actually did.

I was speaking directly to the tweet that billdog was talking about. I thought he was under the impression that the Judges decision had been leaked.

Michael McCann ‏@McCannSportsLaw 21h21 hours ago
Alan Milstein, who's litigated against NFL and tried cases before Judge Berman, told me: “Berman will absolutely vacate Brady's suspension.”


I thought Milstein was speaking more towards Berman's judicial tendency as opposed to any actual decision he's made.
 
and to rob0 too...gotta go now but...

we were talking about the point about the judge getting to the facts...i meant thats brady's only chance to win if we are talking about the facts of the case (not the legal arguments)..

much fun gentlemen.

I can't resist pointing out that it's a supernatural achievement for someone to get in a disagreement with Rob and Deus at the same time.

Congratulations.
 
I was speaking directly to the tweet that billdog was talking about. I thought he was under the impression that the Judges decision had been leaked.

Michael McCann ‏@McCannSportsLaw 21h21 hours ago
Alan Milstein, who's litigated against NFL and tried cases before Judge Berman, told me: “Berman will absolutely vacate Brady's suspension.”


I thought Milstein was speaking more towards Berman's judicial tendency as opposed to any actual decision he's made.


Ok. I get your point now. My bad.

It is the guy's opinion. He know Judge Berman better than any of us. I trust his opinion more than others because of it, but it is an opinion and not a matter of fact.
 
Apology #1 - I have no idea where this comment belongs, given the amount of threads on this, so I am posting it here.

Apology #2 - I also have not read every.... single... post, although I did try to keep up initially. If this has been said already, just ignore me.

Apologies out the way... here is what I think..

We heard at the beginning that Berman would not be interested in evidence, or discussing it, since he is only able to rule on if process (per the CBA) was followed. BUT... since the NFL filed for essentially what amounts to confirmation of their decision, wouldn't it follow that the judge would have to review evidence in order to determine whether or not to uphold the decision? A lot of media people were surprised he asked all the questions around evidence Wednesday. This could be why? And given this, the evidence will hold more weight in his decision?

My second thought on what was happening in his courtroom....... he wanted to set the tone that he thought this whole thing was ridiculous, and there was not evidence to "convict" Brady so when he had to rule in favor of the NFL based on the CBA, people would understand his hands were tied.
 
We heard at the beginning that Berman would not be interested in evidence, or discussing it, since he is only able to rule on if process (per the CBA) was followed.

That's always been misunderstood by the media.
 
We heard at the beginning that Berman would not be interested in evidence, or discussing it, since he is only able to rule on if process (per the CBA) was followed. BUT... since the NFL filed for essentially what amounts to confirmation of their decision, wouldn't it follow that the judge would have to review evidence in order to determine whether or not to uphold the decision?

IANAL IANAL IANAL...

It is my understanding that federal arbitration law requires judges to give great deference to the findings and rulings of arbitrators. In many (but certainly not all!) ways a trial judge reviewing an arbitration decision is a lot like an appellate court reviewing a trial court decision. So (again, as I understand it) the judge has to take many of Goodell-as-arbitrator's findings as a given.

However, he does have to determine if the process was fair and if Goodell was sufficiently unbiased. I have to think that to do that he has to look at the facts at some level. I think the idea is that if there is some minimum amount of evidence to back the punishment the judge has to respect the decision of the arbitrator that there was enough evidence of bad behavior to warrant punishment, even if the judge disagrees with that decision. However, if the amount of evidence was so low that a fair arbitrator could not "reasonably" (for what definition of "reasonably" I know not) conclude there was enough evidence of bad behavior to warrant punishment then that can be evidence that the arbitrator was unfair.

So maybe that's part of what is going on?
 
How about Berman in addition to ruling properly for Brady could also ***** slap the NFL for using valuable federal court time....slap them hard enough as in the Geno knock out punch to get the owners to clean their **** up....have an NFL office that is fair to all concerned. The petulance on display is truly horid. What do we tell the children is serious this time .... adults behaving badly....what a shame.
 
How about Berman in addition to ruling properly for Brady could also ***** slap the NFL for using valuable federal court time....slap them hard enough as in the Geno knock out punch to get the owners to clean their **** up....have an NFL office that is fair to all concerned. The petulance on display is truly horid. What do we tell the children is serious this time .... adults behaving badly....what a shame.

Icy, holy crap your avatar cracked me up. And scared me a little, at the same time.
 
IANAL IANAL IANAL...

It is my understanding that federal arbitration law requires judges to give great deference to the findings and rulings of arbitrators. In many (but certainly not all!) ways a trial judge reviewing an arbitration decision is a lot like an appellate court reviewing a trial court decision. So (again, as I understand it) the judge has to take many of Goodell-as-arbitrator's findings as a given.

However, he does have to determine if the process was fair and if Goodell was sufficiently unbiased. I have to think that to do that he has to look at the facts at some level. I think the idea is that if there is some minimum amount of evidence to back the punishment the judge has to respect the decision of the arbitrator that there was enough evidence of bad behavior to warrant punishment, even if the judge disagrees with that decision. However, if the amount of evidence was so low that a fair arbitrator could not "reasonably" (for what definition of "reasonably" I know not) conclude there was enough evidence of bad behavior to warrant punishment then that can be evidence that the arbitrator was unfair.

So maybe that's part of what is going on?

To piggyback off of this, one thing I've wondered about is whether Berman may use the NFL's lies against them. I can't remember the exact legal term, but there is something about if one party declares something, it becomes part of the requirements, even if it weren't previously.

This was brought up about the Ted Wells investigation. The NFL was not required to use an Independent investigator, but since they claimed Wells was independent, they are now introducing that as their own standard. It was up to them about how to structure their process, but they said they would do it one way, lied about it, and now they want to go back and say that stuff is irrelevant. I do wonder if the judge will look at things like that; in other words, they can do whatever they want in order to determine innocence or guilt, but for fairness, the process cannot just be changed and misrepresented when it suits them best.

Other examples of this: the NFL said they were going to get the scientific results from professors at Columbia, but then they didn't. They said Brady was being punished for being "generally aware" but then his involvement changed for no apparent reason. They said he didn't need to give up his cell phone, then he was punished.

I can see these constantly moving standards as damning to the NFL's case. Even beyond the weak evidence, the NFL has essentially created several standards of judgement, then changed them to "build their case." I think the NFL should have just done an internal league investigation, but they wanted to score PR points by making the public believe this was going to be a fair, judicious process. Now, Goodell is essentially going against the very policies he created. That is the definition of arbitrary. I can see this as very problematic to the NFL's case, and a reason why the judge may overturn the decision.
 
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