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It's "could have been", not "could of been"


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It sure appears to is. (Wait, can't I just use any form of "to be" to end that thought? I mean, since language is completely arbitrary? And let me plus, thought me agree alongwith.)

The fact is that language has no use if it's arbitrary. Even if you're speaking a secret language you and your twin invented in the forest, language must be a shared phenomenon to have any value.

I have to say, not to pick on anybody, that one guy here used "blue collar" correctly in one post (actually, close enough to be understood, although a "grammar nazi" would say it needed a hyphen). And then I think it was the same guy who said "blue color guys" in another post. I swear it took me about three beats to realize he wasn't talking about

2337-fitandcrop-660x365.jpg


So that was just one moment. Of course I moved on. And of course, if we take things to extremes, we can make our writing equally unreadable. The classic example is "That is a situation up with which I shall not put."

It's nice to let out my inner pedant here :) Where I work you can't take a leak without splashing the shoes of a PhD, and they all think they are excellent writers. To make matters worse, I have to edit for both print and Web (think blogs), and I write speeches as well. Spoken language is not written language -- that's speechwriting 101.

The best way to write the world's worst speech is to try to write "correctly." If you want to write the world's worst post, just "write what you're thinking" with no inner editor, or just "write as you'd talk."

It's an excuse that covers so much ground that people here -- not in this thread, but elsewhere on Patsfans -- write truly indecipherable gibberish. The more heated they get, the more indecipherable the writing. So it actually becomes impossible not to laugh, because you can tell how excited the person is by how little of the post you understand. I suppose it's communication, in a way.

Ok that was my "blue color guy" and there is no way I believe that it took you "three beats" to figure out that it was simply a misspelling. I would believe, however, that you saw that misspelling and instantly thought, "I'm throwing up a pic of the Blue Man Group on this one." "This guy is gonna pay and pay hahd fah this one, yes sah". Right?
 
You found the argument absurd because you found the sentence absurd. It is one and the same and, again, it illustrates my point.

You should create a new thread for yourself and label it:

How to use grammatically correct english to build a gobbledygook argument.

I'm sure you could post all day in a thread like that.
 
So, I have literally read just about every comment in this thread. I could of read them all but past up on a few cause I ran out of time. Didjah understand that? Did I hit any nerves?

I grew up in a blue collar house hold and the idear behind the thought was what was important. Proper english or proper grammar was not a high priority and therefore I grew up using many of the grammar deficient phrases stated on this thread. My fathah was born and raised in an extremely poor household in northern NH. Built his first bike from parts from the junk "yahd" among other things and although he joined the Air Force without a high school diploma he went on to serve 30 years and retiring and earning two master degrees along the way. He improved his grammar but never lost his regional accent nor stopped using colloquial phrases because it was a part of who he was and where he was from. The idea behind the term grammar police is not for someone who (or is it whom?) politely corrects your grammar it is for those who act like snobs and think that speaking english in any way other than proper shows lack or class, respect or intelligence. Colloquial phrases or improper usage of the language can be cultural and rooted to the identity of a person from a particular region just as it is around the rest of the world. The best thing I got from my fathah wasn't a grammar lesson rather it was to be yourself, be honest and be respectful. I honestly do not care how someone phrases a statement or question when we are in a conversation because I am searching for the meaning or the idea behind it which more often than not can lead to something positive. Grammar is important but more important is the idea or message that man/woman is trying to convey.

Some good points made Tony! But I still pray that being grammatically correct never becomes politically incorrect. In other words, if I'm working with a new employee and he/she has poor English grammar, I shouldn't have to worry about offending them by correcting them. Because in a professional world, if you use incorrect grammar, it will get noticed.

Neither of my parents went to college. My dad had to get his GED because he was in a hospital from the age of 13 until he was 19. But my grammar has little to do with my parents since I had the opportunity to be educated....yup, I actually paid attention in school.

But does our grammar have anything to do with the quality of our character? No it does not....not in the least buddy! No one is any "better" because they've mastered a language expertly.
 
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Ok that was my "blue color guy" and there is no way I believe that it took you "three beats" to figure out that it was simply a misspelling. I would believe, however, that you saw that misspelling and instantly thought, "I'm throwing up a pic of the Blue Man Group on this one." "This guy is gonna pay and pay hahd fah this one, yes sah". Right?

Tony, first of all let me say even if my first thought were "I'm going to be a wise-ass about this," I like what you've said here, even though I disagree. So even if that were my intent, I would take this opportunity to say no hard feelings, but I swear I was not gleefully rubbing my hands together and thinking "gotcha."

Here's the process.... and bear in mind I like to think I'm pretty bright...

1) my eyes read "...blue color guys..."
2) my brain tried to figure it out. I knew you meant something else... but a picture of the Blue Man Group got in the way as I worked on re-reading...
3) (As I said, this is a matter of skipped beats, not re-reading a dozen times...) I figured out from context what you were saying.
4) "Okay that was funny, I'm getting me a Blue Man Group picture on the google machine"

Remember before when I mentioned speechwriting? Owslek might have some of the following experience from songwriting, and obviously I'm applying it to "written English" here:

We all think the other guy knows what we mean. The clearest writers in the world, even when they're trying very hard not to be misunderstood, are misunderstood all the time. Very good writers, way better than me (for example) write with no post-modern intent to "let the reader construct half the meaning." Yet people fill in the blanks anyway.

So in speech-writing, if you analyze an award-winning speech (yes, you can submit a speech for an award... even a speech accepting an award) usually it is written at an even lower "grade level" than a newspaper. I'm talking seventh to tenth grade level for an audience of people with doctorates.

They can't pause and re-read the sentence. They can't put down the speech they're tired of and come back to it. They can't look up a word and come back. They're captives. The same with people listening to a song. So you make the sentences shorter. You repeat things on purpose. You don't say "domicile" if you can say "house."

In written English it's easier - readers can do all the things audiences can't. But then again, how often do you really come back to a post once you've said "Eh this makes me tired"?

It's still the writer's job to be clear (and again, we are all sinners - I'm not always clear either. When I'm on a rant, it's worse).

All that to say, it's just "three beats" we're talking about, but yes, it really did happen. I didn't try to make it happen. I think we're forever reading sentences, going "huh?", and coming back to figure them out. Then we get tired and move on. (This wasn't the case with your post - I stuck around, figured out the meaning, etc. - but you were definitely in danger of it).

That said, the clearest writers do the opposite of some of the things I personally am guilty of. They keep each sentence about one thought. They keep each paragraph about one topic. They write without a lot of clauses. You can see by the number of times I use parentheses and dashes that when I'm having fun, I disregard that stuff. This place would be no fun if it were "business writing 101" style.

But yeah my brain really did flash on Blue Man Group, and it really was confused for a moment. The unintentional meaning became a light distraction while your gentle reader tried to figure out your real meaning.

Here's a parallel: You and the guys are out drinking beer. I know you're going to say you'd be drinking out of cans on the stoop but meet me halfway... you're in a bar.

It's your great misfortune to be drinking Pabst Blue Ribbon that night. Even worse, you say to the waitress "I'll have another PBJ." There's a confused silence, and then your friends laugh at you. Nothing mean, they just crack up. She says "I thought for a minute you were ordering a sandwich." She laughs too. Nothing mean, it's just funny. She leaves. One of your friends says "I thought you were asking her for a BJ." (And he's being honest.) Everybody laughs some more. Nobody's out to get you, but most likely next time you're out, you try to remember to say PBR. (Maybe it becomes a running joke, maybe you get nicknamed PBJ, whatever, but I think in most cases you just modify your language to fit the norm).

It happens all the time to somebody, but in spoken language we try very hard to conform to the norms so it doesn't happen to us. In written English, there are two camps: those who have been embarrassed by such things in the context of writing, try not to repeat the mistake, and try to pass on what they've learned to others (admittedly, sometimes by embarrassing them); and those who insist that you can call a beer a PBJ and lecture you on what a bully you are if you point out that they meant PBR.

President Taft said "Don't write to be understood. Write so that you can't be misunderstood."

And personally, I'm positive that I don't live up to Taft's advice. But I think I get closer when I try.

/lecture

And it gets way worse than losing a second or two on "blue color guys," believe me! Fine post, funny moment, but really, I wasn't just waiting to do that.
 
Some good points made Tony! But I still pray that being grammatically correct never becomes politically incorrect. In other words, if I'm working with a new employee and he/she has poor English grammar, I shouldn't have to worry about offending them by correcting them. Because in a professional world, if you use incorrect grammar, it will get noticed.

Neither of my parents went to college. My dad had to get his GED because he was in a hospital from the age of 13 until he was 19. But my grammar has little to do with my parents since I had the opportunity to be educated....yup, I actually paid attention in school.

But does our grammar have anything to do with the quality of our character? No it does not....not in the least buddy! No one is any "better" because they've mastered a language expertly.


Great points Reign. You've brought up another important angle to that discussion. You would expect companies public relations manager to have excellent communication skills and a strong command of the English language. On the other hand you would expect a facilities maintenance manager to be organized and have excellent trouble shooting skills but you would not need that person to be as grammatically gifted. Each profession requires a different skill set.

Most people are not delusional. They know or should know that if they want to climb the ladder they will have to pursue higher education, speak civilly, work hard or whatever it may take to get to the next level but some are happy right where they are.
 
Tony, first of all let me say even if my first thought were "I'm going to be a wise-ass about this," I like what you've said here, even though I disagree. So even if that were my intent, I would take this opportunity to say no hard feelings, but I swear I was not gleefully rubbing my hands together and thinking "gotcha."

Here's the process.... and bear in mind I like to think I'm pretty bright...

1) my eyes read "...blue color guys..."
2) my brain tried to figure it out. I knew you meant something else... but a picture of the Blue Man Group got in the way as I worked on re-reading...
3) (As I said, this is a matter of skipped beats, not re-reading a dozen times...) I figured out from context what you were saying.
4) "Okay that was funny, I'm getting me a Blue Man Group picture on the google machine"

Remember before when I mentioned speechwriting? Owslek might have some of the following experience from songwriting, and obviously I'm applying it to "written English" here:

We all think the other guy knows what we mean. The clearest writers in the world, even when they're trying very hard not to be misunderstood, are misunderstood all the time. Very good writers, way better than me (for example) write with no post-modern intent to "let the reader construct half the meaning." Yet people fill in the blanks anyway.

So in speech-writing, if you analyze an award-winning speech (yes, you can submit a speech for an award... even a speech accepting an award) usually it is written at an even lower "grade level" than a newspaper. I'm talking seventh to tenth grade level for an audience of people with doctorates.

They can't pause and re-read the sentence. They can't put down the speech they're tired of and come back to it. They can't look up a word and come back. They're captives. The same with people listening to a song. So you make the sentences shorter. You repeat things on purpose. You don't say "domicile" if you can say "house."

In written English it's easier - readers can do all the things audiences can't. But then again, how often do you really come back to a post once you've said "Eh this makes me tired"?

It's still the writer's job to be clear (and again, we are all sinners - I'm not always clear either. When I'm on a rant, it's worse).

All that to say, it's just "three beats" we're talking about, but yes, it really did happen. I didn't try to make it happen. I think we're forever reading sentences, going "huh?", and coming back to figure them out. Then we get tired and move on. (This wasn't the case with your post - I stuck around, figured out the meaning, etc. - but you were definitely in danger of it).

That said, the clearest writers do the opposite of some of the things I personally am guilty of. They keep each sentence about one thought. They keep each paragraph about one topic. They write without a lot of clauses. You can see by the number of times I use parentheses and dashes that when I'm having fun, I disregard that stuff. This place would be no fun if it were "business writing 101" style.

But yeah my brain really did flash on Blue Man Group, and it really was confused for a moment. The unintentional meaning became a light distraction while your gentle reader tried to figure out your real meaning.

Here's a parallel: You and the guys are out drinking beer. I know you're going to say you'd be drinking out of cans on the stoop but meet me halfway... you're in a bar.

It's your great misfortune to be drinking Pabst Blue Ribbon that night. Even worse, you say to the waitress "I'll have another PBJ." There's a confused silence, and then your friends laugh at you. Nothing mean, they just crack up. She says "I thought for a minute you were ordering a sandwich." She laughs too. Nothing mean, it's just funny. She leaves. One of your friends says "I thought you were asking her for a BJ." (And he's being honest.) Everybody laughs some more. Nobody's out to get you, but most likely next time you're out, you try to remember to say PBR. (Maybe it becomes a running joke, maybe you get nicknamed PBJ, whatever, but I think in most cases you just modify your language to fit the norm).

It happens all the time to somebody, but in spoken language we try very hard to conform to the norms so it doesn't happen to us. In written English, there are two camps: those who have been embarrassed by such things in the context of writing, try not to repeat the mistake, and try to pass on what they've learned to others (admittedly, sometimes by embarrassing them); and those who insist that you can call a beer a PBJ and lecture you on what a bully you are if you point out that they meant PBR.

President Taft said "Don't write to be understood. Write so that you can't be misunderstood."

And personally, I'm positive that I don't live up to Taft's advice. But I think I get closer when I try.

/lecture

And it gets way worse than losing a second or two on "blue color guys," believe me! Fine post, funny moment, but really, I wasn't just waiting to do that.


Please do not think I was offended or thought you were out to get me. I have enjoyed this thread. I have enjoyed reading your posts. I've learned a few things from this thread. I am not easily offended. I think I rated your blue man post as funny. I responded in jest.

Have to say that the PBJ analogy was incredibly funny.

Edit: I just re-read that post. I should have put a haha or something at the end. Apologize for that.
 
Please do not think I was offended or thought you were out to get me. I have enjoyed this thread. I have enjoyed reading your posts. I've learned a few things from this thread. I am not easily offended. I think I rated your blue man post as funny. I responded in jest.

Have to say that the PBJ analogy was incredibly funny.

Edit: I just re-read that post. I should have put a haha or something at the end. Apologize for that.

Nah I think I saw the "funny" rating but I was trying to make sure you knew I "din' mean no harm" at the beginning of my next comment.

Edit - PS, I went back and looked at the post in question, and I think my momentary confusion was compounded by a simple typo before "blue color guys"... it was preceded by "an" rather than "any." I am not nit-picking here, I am shoring up the reasons that I didn't understand at first and had to re-read. Point is, everybody does little mess-ups, and sometimes they're unintentionally funny. It only gets to me when someone just descends into their own secret language... apparently without knowing it. That's not you (once again)!
 
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seeing the overwhelming response given this all important "treatise" thread, I, Joe Kerr The Indecipherable, have decided to ADD a new adjunct to my burgeoning empire. Joe Kerr's Church Of Good Looks along with the School Of Good Looks will now be joined with a third entity...Joe Kerr's Academy Of Bene Diction. All you have to do to graduate is speak the words I, Joe Kerr, will teach you...clearly and correctly. As an example I offer my latest exercise....

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See? It's easy, peasy, rather sleazy.Get on the road to a NEW you, a better you, the Hugh you always wanted to be. Enroll today and get 5% off Joe's School Of Good Looks Summer Term...and remember, you can pick your friends..and you can pick your nose...but...it is extremely gauche to pick your friend's nose. Sign up today and get YOUR good word now!offer not valid in Tierra Del Fuego, Middle Mongolia or Finland....
 
No applicant to Joe Kerr's School of Good Looks will be admitted to Joe Kerr's Academy of Bene Diction. Enrollment may cause dry mouth, liver spots, alimentary canal disorder, bloody stool, irregular rhythm, dyspepsia, dyscocacola, sublingual warts, cervico-arachnid tremens, and the condition known as dog's head. Check with your doctoral candidate whether Joe Kerr's Academy of Bene Diction is right for you.

Finally communicate - enroll today!
 
looks like you're bucking for Dean...but first a little test...who uttered these famous words..

in my old neighborhood it was said "you can get farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word... answer correctly and your tenor as Dean shall convence...

220px-Norm_Crosby_1965.JPG
 
Some good points made Tony! But I still pray that being grammatically correct never becomes politically incorrect. In other words, if I'm working with a new employee and he/she has poor English grammar, I shouldn't have to worry about offending them by correcting them. Because in a professional world, if you use incorrect grammar, it will get noticed.

Neither of my parents went to college. My dad had to get his GED because he was in a hospital from the age of 13 until he was 19. But my grammar has little to do with my parents since I had the opportunity to be educated....yup, I actually paid attention in school.

But does our grammar have anything to do with the quality of our character? No it does not....not in the least buddy! No one is any "better" because they've mastered a language expertly.

My parents had to work all the time, so my Grammar had a lot to do with building my character.
 
looks like you're bucking for Dean...but first a little test...who uttered these famous words..

in my old neighborhood it was said "you can get farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word... answer correctly and your tenor as Dean shall convence...

 
Rut-Roh ............

1242230858223190190.jpg
 
Jet fans only speak monosyllabic words...those results are obviously skewed.
 
Simple explanation - since they've shown they can figure out how to post comments, clearly we even have a superior class of morons :D
 
lin my old neighborhood it was said "you can get farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word... answer correctly and your tenor as Dean shall convence...

220px-Norm_Crosby_1965.JPG

:cool:

"It is unquestionable that certain words and ceremonies will effectually destroy a flock of sheep, if administered with a sufficient portion of arsenic."
 
Who wouldn't want to be Dean?

Dean.jpeg
 
Jet fans only speak monosyllabic words.
How and when did they become so advanced? From what I recall their vocabulary comprised grunts, howls, whimpers and whining.
 
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