Evan Mathis released

Todd Bradley said:

Tarell Brown

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I think there is a chance he ends up with the Pats. They are clearly interested and have had him in a few times this off-season. Could be he was looking for a little bit more money for incentive to do OTAs and Mini-Camp.

I'd sign the beast in a minute, but he isn't coming over here for what the pats would offer if he was already beefing over 5.5m.

Marqui said:

Except we have no idea if either of those guys are any good yet.

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I'm reasonably confident that Jackson will be pretty good in the short term, but even having said that I still think Mathis is the kind of guy you go and get if you have a chance and he doesn't cost way too much.

Todd Bradley said:

I don't understand how anyone could be disappointed in this offseason, even without Mathis and Brown, though they certainly would be nice.

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Sure you do. If you weren't a Patriots fan, you'd be openly mocking this team's secondary.

Deus Irae said:

Sure you do. If you weren't a Patriots fan, you'd be openly mocking this team's secondary.

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I don't think we even have the worst in the league on paper, Ryan performed well in a #3/4 role in his rookie season, he was statistically the best rookie CB in 2013.

Fletcher was overmatched last season but also played against some of the leagues best WR's, Bryant twice, Jackson twice, OBJ/Cruz, etc. He's played decent football in previous years.

Butler is built off of hype but he's shown some good things.

Chung is a solid SS, or at least he was with the supporting cast he had last season, this year will tell how good he is without it.

DMC is hard to not list in the top 3 FS in the game.

Not the best Nickel DB group in the NFL but not the worst, and not as bad as the outside world is making it sound. And I'm not even pretending to say I think we're set, we're just not as bad off as everyone likes to think we are, IMO.

Our front 7 probably also isn't going to be as good as people think it is, either. I've heard outside media calling it "vaunted". Let's play some games first.

strngplyr said:

I don't think we even have the worst in the league on paper, Ryan performed well in a #3/4 role in his rookie season, he was statistically the best rookie CB in 2013.

Fletcher was overmatched last season but also played against some of the leagues best WR's, Bryant twice, Jackson twice, OBJ/Cruz, etc. He's played decent football in previous years.

Butler is built off of hype but he's shown some good things.

Chung is a solid SS, or at least he was with the supporting cast he had last season, this year will tell how good he is without it.

DMC is hard to not list in the top 3 FS in the game.

Not the best Nickel DB group in the NFL but not the worst, and not as bad as the outside world is making it sound. And I'm not even pretending to say I think we're set, we're just not as bad off as everyone likes to think we are, IMO.

Our front 7 probably also isn't going to be as good as people think it is, either. I've heard outside media calling it "vaunted". Let's play some games first.

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Fletcher's been crap for years. He didn't just suck because he played Dez Bryant. We'd all love him to have a monster year, but that's no reason to kid ourselves about what he's been.

And Chung is the same Chung he's always been.

We go through this pretty much every year, with the homers thinking every draft pick and/or signing is going to the HOF.

I have an automated three word response for every thread like this.

"Never gonna' happen."

Todd Bradley said:

If we could somehow sign both Mathis and Tarell Brown, that would solidly an amazing off-season, deflate-crap aside. We certainly have enough cap space to do it.

Revis leaving sucks, but Belichick was never giving him that money here.

Replacing Wilfork, Revis, Browner, Ayers, Vereen, and Wright with Evan Mathis, Tarell Brown, Sheard, Chandler, both Fletchers, McClain, Cox, Cadet, Malcolm Brown and all the rookies, would be a master stroke by Bill. Let's also not forget the return of both Dobson and Easley.

I don't understand how anyone could be disappointed in this offseason, even without Mathis and Brown, though they certainly would be nice.

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Lots of thoughts here. First off, I get the sense that Belichick isn't in the kind of rush to spend the 11 million dollars (approx.) that they currently have available. As we know, there are always important pacts approaching in the next year or two, and I think that they'll want to keep as much of this as possible. It's good to have that kind of flexibility, but I'm glad that some of our posters aren't managing the cap. It will be nice to carry over 5-6 million into next year.

That said, I do agree with you that either one of Mathis/Brown would be nice to have. My concern would be the usual kind of questions regarding fit and expecting salary/value. I agree with you about Revis, although the optimism of the board seemed to sway me into thinking that it was actually a possibility. Once McCourty signed on Saturday night, that hope quickly faded.

Our current free agent additions are adequate, assuming that Chandler Jones is both coming off of surgery AND needs to see a lesser work load. Jabal Sheard is versatile, talented, and smart enough to do what's asked of him, so I like that signing a lot. I also like the fact that Dane Fletcher was brought back for LB and ST depth. The Scott Chandler signing was great too. All the rest---meh, at least as the moment. I still think that Dan Connelly is going to return for one more year, but we'll see.

Deus Irae said:

Sure you do. If you weren't a Patriots fan, you'd be openly mocking this team's secondary.

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Not really.

When you lose a player of Revis' caliber for an absolute obscene amount of money, it's a tough loss, but you bite the bullet in order to spread that money around the entire team instead of one position.

I would rather have a resigned Hightower and Collins, along with our off-season acquisitions, then just Revis, alone. I understand if you disagree, but many fans would agree with me on that.

And I wouldn't go as far to say our secondary is a terrible joke; it's definitely in the bottom-half of the league, but with Belichick trying to emulate a NY Giants-esque NASCAR defensive front, a stout, lockdown man-t0-man secondary is hardly a necessity. Go ask the Pats in 07 and 11.

Add Brown to this group, especially with a NASCAR D-Line, and the secondary is certainly above average.

JMC00 said:

eh little harsh to call him immobile. He is good at moving around in the pocket (I mean just look at your sig) and even once in a while he will pull it down and take off.

Drew Bledsoe was immobile.

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Brady himself will be the first to tell you that he's not exactly fleet of foot.

Todd Bradley said:

Not really.

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Yes, really. I've seen it. I've read it. I've heard it. The Patriots secondary is Devin McCourty and a bunch of players who are either unknowns or garbage. Take off your homer glasses for once and actually look at what's there, for crying out loud. It's alright to be rational, and to hope for the best while understanding what the past has shown about what you've got.

TommyBrady12 said:

i am not sure we really need him - we have tre jackson and shaq mason to fill the holes on the oline.

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Along with some guys who were groomed last year.

This is about allocation of money. I'd rather use it to extend the current talent, and have cash for a CB and/or another ILB. In terms of depth, I'm more concerned about LB, where the team is one injury away from being very weak. The starters are great, but have a significant injury proclivity.

Unless, of course, none of those guards from last year or this year's draft can play up to (at least) average, in which case it becomes a huge weakness. But the odds of that are pretty slim.

Deus Irae said:

Yes, really. I've seen it. I've read it. I've heard it. The Patriots secondary is Devin McCourty and a bunch of players who are either unknowns or garbage. Take off your homer glasses for once and actually look at what's there, for crying out loud. It's alright to be rational, and to hope for the best while understanding what the past has shown about what you've got.

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Still playing the "homer card" I see, DI. Well you MIGHT be right, but Bill Belechick (at this point) thinks you might be wrong. Here is a list of reasons why.

1. As fans we are all about "names" and individual accomplishments. It's just who we are. We often forget that one of the reasons we love the game is that it's NOT basketball, where individual talent is king. Football is a game where the SUM can be much better than the individual parts.

As Pats fans we should really be more in tune with this concept, since we have so often won games WITHOUT having the best "individual talent". Our OL last season was very productive despite having the entire interior line being made up of individual players who no one heard of and wouldn't raise a ripple if another team signed them (though Stork might get there in a year or two) You can say the same for the WR corps. We have good players who play better as a group, in this system.

2. Every time a pass gets completed we all want to blame someone in the secondary, yet the Mendoza line for QB's in the NFL is now 60% and rising.. So the majority of the time EVERY NFL back 7/8 is getting beaten.

3. Loosing Revis is an obvious loss that isn't going to be made up for.....by any individual player. But with a full off season off season of preparation, I wouldn't be shocked to see the Pats pass defense numbers this season by only marginally worse....if that.

4. It's easy to rag on Fletcher, but until we see how he works out in THIS defensive scheme, under these coaches, it is way too soon to make absolute judgments (but that IS what you do best, DI. ) I understand that part of Fletcher's problems in Philly came from the fact that far too often he was left on an island with WR's who simply were better. My feeling is that he's here to be a physical presence on the corner much like Browner was, and a lot of his success came from the fact he was rare "left on an island"

5 NONE of us has any idea how the perceived improvement along the front 7 will affect the secondary. If it is gong to be as active and aggressive as we hope, it could effect the back end very positively.

6. Every year some player emerges that no one saw coming. We have no idea who this year's Malcom Butler or Patrick Chung is going to be. All we do know is that it's very likely that there will be one.

7. Between injuries, trades, FA signings, and other team's releases, history tells us there are 2- 3 players who will turn out to be important players on this team, who aren't on the roster yet.

8. Finally, how quickly we forget the 2011 secondary, who right up until the last game of the regular season, was the historically WORST secondary in yardage given up. It was a secondary playing with players who were viewed as a LOT worse that what we have coming to camp., and had to use a WR to fill in. It was a secondary made up Devon McCourty (how did you so inelegantly put it) "made up of unknowns or garbage". They too made it to a superbowl,

In the end, you might very well be right in your opinion on our secondary. On the surface, it certainly isn't a secondary filled with big names. It definitely should be #1 on any list of concerns for the 2015 team. BUT that doesn't mean you can glibly dismiss them like you have so often, especially this early, OR is it necessary to label, anyone who says anything positive, a mindless uncritical homer.

patfanken said:

Still playing the "homer card" I see, DI. Well you MIGHT be right, but Bill Belechick (at this point) thinks you might be wrong. Here is a list of reasons why.

1. As fans we are all about "names" and individual accomplishments. It's just who we are. We often forget that one of the reasons we love the game is that it's NOT basketball, where individual talent is king. Football is a game where the SUM can be much better than the individual parts.

As Pats fans we should really be more in tune with this concept, since we have so often won games WITHOUT having the best "individual talent". Our OL was very productive despite having the entire interior line being made up of individual players who no one heard of and wouldn't raise a ripple if another team signed them (though Stork might get there in a year or two) You can say the same for the WR corps. We have good players who play better as a group, in this system.

2. Every time a pass gets completed we all want to blame someone in the secondary, yet the Mendoza line for QB's in the NFL is now 60% and rising.. So the majority of the time EVERY NFL back 7/8 is getting beaten.

3. Loosing Revis is an obvious loss that isn't going to be made up for.....by any individual player. But with a full off season off season of preparation, I wouldn't be shocked to see the Pats pass defense numbers this season by only marginally worse....if that.

4. It's easy to rag on Fletcher, but until we see how he works out in THIS defensive scheme, under these coaches, it is way too soon to make absolute judgments (but that IS what you do best, DI. ) I understand that part of Fletcher's problems in Philly came from the fact that far too often he was left on an island with WR's who simply were better. My feeling is that he's here to be a physical presence on the corner much like Browner was, and a lot of his success came from the fact he was rare "left on an island"

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Agreed PFK, and BB has been doing this for a while now.

We should all remember when BB's Browns beat Bill Parcells' Patriots 20-13 in the playoffs back in 1995.

The Browns were another team who won despite having lesser talent than the Pats did.

patfanken said:

Still playing the "homer card" I see, DI. Well you MIGHT be right, but Bill Belechick (at this point) thinks you might be wrong. Here is a list of reasons why.

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Your list is irrelevant and your post is a waste of time, so I'm not going to bother reading it any further than this, because you've already gone off the rails. I didn't say that none of these players would pan out. I have, in fact, said that they are banking on one or more of them doing just that. I've talked about what they've been to this point, and I've talked about how the homers on the board react to players, year after year after year. All the Thompkinses, Burresses, Hayeses, O'Neals and Sudfelds of the world don't stop you people from ignoring logic, despite it being obvious that what BB is doing is throwing numbers at a problem and hoping to get lucky with a player or two, and not stocking the cupboard with hundreds of can't miss players.

Other than last year and when Talib was healthy, this team hasn't had serviceable defensive backfields since 2007, yet BB finds a way to make it work. It's a tribute to his coaching that he's been able to keep this team going despite his ongoing failure to find a long term solution to his problems in that defensive secondary. That being the case doesn't change the underlying issue of having bad players back there, though.

You can argue all the straw men you want, though, if that makes you feel better.

KontradictioN said:

Brady himself will be the first to tell you that he's not exactly fleet of foot.

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Could just be splitting hairs about the terminology. He is not at all fleet of foot, but he moves in the pocket better than any quarterback I've ever seen. I guess it would be how one defines "mobility". I tend to think of running QBs as "scramblers", and truly "immobile" quarterbacks are gents like Bledsoe, Kerry Collins types. But that's just my line of thinking. To each their own with regards to the terminology.

Deus Irae said:

Sure you do. If you weren't a Patriots fan, you'd be openly mocking this team's secondary.

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I AM a Patriots fan and I repeatedly mock this team secondary!!,

It ridiculous that for one year out of the last 10 the Pats actually had a good to great secondary with no WR doubling as CBs and surprise, surprise, surprise they won the Super Bowl.

The front seven will make up for some of this groups deficiencies, but not all of them.

TBR said:

Elway's desperate ass will probably give him a blank check

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Elway would have to circumvent the salary cap to get him and we know that an upstanding organization like the Broncos would never........oh wait.....never mind.

Hercules Rockefeller said:

Could just be splitting hairs about the terminology. He is not at all fleet of foot, but he moves in the pocket better than any quarterback I've ever seen. I guess it would be how one defines "mobility". I tend to think of running QBs as "scramblers", and truly "immobile" quarterbacks are gents like Bledsoe, Kerry Collins types. But that's just my line of thinking. To each their own with regards to the terminology.

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That movement in the pocket is entirely dependent on a somewhat clean pocket. Brady moves well there, I won't disagree with that. But last year, a lot of the route designs for the WR's were tailored to get the ball out of Brady's hands quickly because the OL couldn't consistently give him a clean pocket to move in. I can't think of a better plug and play LG than Mathis available right now to bolster interior pass protection for that reason alone.

KontradictioN said:

That movement in the pocket is entirely dependent on a somewhat clean pocket. Brady moves well there, I won't disagree with that. But last year, a lot of the route designs for the WR's were tailored to get the ball out of Brady's hands quickly because the OL couldn't consistently give him a clean pocket to move in. I can't think of a better plug and play LG than Mathis available right now to bolster interior pass protection for that reason alone.

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The graphic in your signature displays Brady's pocket movement so awesomely!