Patriots Best Move Is to Leave Devin McCourty At Safety

mgteich said:

I'm waiting for the punch line.

1) Say that your are right (or close) in that we did indeed do OK in replacing Browner with Fletcher.

2) And how did we do with replacing Arrington with McClain?

3) And how did we do, replacing Revis with Butler?

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As I said I think we replaced Browner with Fletcher.

McClain was labeled a secret superstar by PFF and hyped as one of the best slot CBs in the NFL after the 2013 season. He is younger plus much cheaper than Arrington and in my opinion capable of replacing Arrington. As you know from prior conversations, I never felt Arrington was the slot CB many on this board did.

Unless we can trade fro Sherman, Peterson, or Haden there is no replacing Revis. The only hope is to lessen the impact of the loss.

IMO Fletcher is just as good as Browner...except he doesn't have that swagger. I think a lot of WR's heard footsteps with Browner back there. He was an enforcer. Their is something to be said for that.

I agree with the McClain comparison with Arrington. It's probably a break-even.

Revis: their is no replacing him. The best we can hope for is Butler plays at SuperBowl level every single game.

mgteich said:

I have no clue why anyone would think moving McCourty to corner would make the corner position weaker.

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It would make the safety position weaker more than it would make the CB position stronger

mgteich said:

I have no clue why anyone would think moving McCourty to corner would make the corner position weaker.

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I was speaking of last year vs. this year. The position got weaker in the offseason. Moving McCourty to corner would weaken the safety position hence two positions in the secondary would be weaker from last year to this year. I don't believe McCourty is anywhere near a good enough corner to warrant the damage that would do at safety.

Zuma said:

IMO

Revis: their is no replacing him. The best we can hope for is Butler plays at SuperBowl level every single game.

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So, since we don't have Revis, it really doesn't matter who we have as our #1 corner? As an aside, Butler may or may not beat out Ryan for the starting spot.

I do thank you for focusing the discussion. If we are OK with Fletcher and McClain replacing Browner and Arrington, we have only one position that we are greatly concerned about, instead of three. IMHO, we can HOPE that Fletcher and McClain work out. We can even expect that do happen, understanding that plans often don't work out.

In the end, I simply don't understand how the contributions from Richards and Grissom will be more than whatever corners we might have gotten by draft, by trade up or down, or by trade. I guess that Belichick can still trade for a corner.

Also, I don't understand folks who think that having one of the top two corners in the NFL makes very little difference to a team, and that is absence can be readily be made up for. Other GM's found EIGHT corners between 65 and 136. Are they all really worthless?

CORNERS PICKED BY OTHER TEAMS
We picked Richards at 64 and Grissom at 97

65 DJaun Smith
78 PJ Williams
80 Alex Carter
83 Craig Magar
98 Steve Nelson
120 Josh Shaw
121 Doren Grant
136 Tray Walker

mgteich said:

So, since we don't have Revis, it really doesn't matter who we have as our #1 corner? As an aside, Butler may or may not beat out Ryan for the starting spot.

I do thank you for focusing the discussion. If we are OK with Fletcher and McClain replacing Browner and Arrington, we have only one position that we are greatly concerned about, instead of three. IMHO, we can HOPE that Fletcher and McClain work out. We can even expect that do happen, understanding that plans often don't work out.

In the end, I simply don't understand how the contributions from Richards and Grissom will be more than whatever corners we might have gotten by draft, by trade up or down, or by trade. I guess that Belichick can still trade for a corner.

Also, I don't understand folks who think that having one of the top two corners in the NFL makes very little difference to a team, and that is absence can be readily be made up for. Other GM's found EIGHT corners between 65 and 136. Are they all really worthless?

CORNERS PICKED BY OTHER TEAMS
We picked Richards at 64 and Grissom at 97

65 DJaun Smith
78 PJ Williams
80 Alex Carter
83 Craig Magar
98 Steve Nelson
120 Josh Shaw
121 Doren Grant
136 Tray Walker

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Shaw would have been a very nice selection. The athleticism to line up and play press man as a corner and the size and range to play safety.

The real question to me is why Belichick is apparently as comfortable as he appears to be with what he has?

Ivan said:

The real question to me is why Belichick is apparently as comfortable as he appears to be with what he has?

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You could have asked that question about the corners in 2011 and 2012 as well. Many of us did.

KontradictioN said:

May I ask what you're basing this on?

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On the fact that Fletcher spent the first 3 years of his career facing Danny Amendola in practice...

No seriously, Browner was a physical presence but he was also a liability especially with hate rule changes, which are likely to be enforced even more this season. Fletcher is a good CB who has led the NFL in pass defends over the past 2 seasons. If he is not asked to cover the other teams #1 WR on an island he will be a great addition, also having a legit safety covering up his mistakes will make all the difference.

mgteich said:

So, since we don't have Revis, it really doesn't matter who we have as our #1 corner? As an aside, Butler may or may not beat out Ryan for the starting spot.

I do thank you for focusing the discussion. If we are OK with Fletcher and McClain replacing Browner and Arrington, we have only one position that we are greatly concerned about, instead of three. IMHO, we can HOPE that Fletcher and McClain work out. We can even expect that do happen, understanding that plans often don't work out.

In the end, I simply don't understand how the contributions from Richards and Grissom will be more than whatever corners we might have gotten by draft, by trade up or down, or by trade. I guess that Belichick can still trade for a corner.

Also, I don't understand folks who think that having one of the top two corners in the NFL makes very little difference to a team, and that is absence can be readily be made up for. Other GM's found EIGHT corners between 65 and 136. Are they all really worthless?

CORNERS PICKED BY OTHER TEAMS
We picked Richards at 64 and Grissom at 97

65 DJaun Smith
78 PJ Williams
80 Alex Carter
83 Craig Magar
98 Steve Nelson
120 Josh Shaw
121 Doren Grant
136 Tray Walker

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I liked Steve Nelson, personally would have taken him over Grissom. If I was actually making the selections that is.

The next shutdown CB is likely to come out in 2016 with Vernon Hargreaves but he is likely to be way out of our reach thanks to Goodell.

Triumph said:

If the plan is to get to the QB every

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My very first sentence said: "You don't have to get to the QB every time."

then the other team will just stay in an offense to counter that. Rodgers, Manning, Flacco and QBs of that caliber will have a field day playing NE.

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Rodgers is in the top 2 quarterbacks in the NFL, if he has a field day with the defense it's because he's Aaron Rodgers.

Manning? Seriously? If you get pressure on Manning then he will fold. You can't be serious.

Then you try to say Flacco who's game relies largely on the deep ball. If you pressure the quarterback and have a ball hawking safety playing centerfield ala Devin McCourtey, then the deep ball will be ineffective. So there's another moot point.

Draws and Screens all day long. Big windows to throw into. Maximum protection and send Steve Smith or Jordy Nelson or Emanuel Sanders out vs Logan Ryan.

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Everybody in the NFL knows how you're supposed to counter an effective pass rush. Everybody. Writing it down on paper (or a message board in your case) and actually executing are two different things. In the words of Mike Tyson, "Everyone has a plan til they get punched in the mouth."

The Pats defensive style has been to mix it up and pick and choose when they are going after the QB. Not rely on the pass rush as the pass defense.

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You do realize that Belichick's game styles are ever evolving, right? I'm gonna guess no considering you just typed this. Trying to say how Belichick is going to gameplan something before he actually does it utterly stupid considering nobody ever knows what he's thinking or how he's going to approach something.

mgteich said:

If we are OK with Fletcher and McClain replacing Browner and Arrington, we have only one position that we are greatly concerned about, instead of three. IMHO, we can HOPE that Fletcher and McClain work out.

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YES...

I am wearing my rose colored glasses and drinking a BB smoothie...IMO Fletcher and McClain "could" replace our previous 2 and 3. If that's the case then were only just missing one piece....CB1. A proven bonafide CB1 is the difference between giving up 7 on nearly every drive and bending to 3.

Brady needs to be 30 years old again if BB decides were standing Pat with the DB's.

mgteich said:

I do thank you for focusing the discussion. If we are OK with Fletcher and McClain replacing Browner and Arrington, we have only one position that we are greatly concerned about, instead of three. IMHO, we can HOPE that Fletcher and McClain work out. We can even expect that do happen, understanding that plans often don't work out.

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How many games did Revis actually cover the other teams #1 WR on an island last year? It appeared to me that in many situations the had Browner cover the #1 WR with McCourty doubling over the top.

Brady6 said:

How many games did Revis actually cover the other teams #1 WR on an island last year? It appeared to me that in many situations the had Browner cover the #1 WR with McCourty doubling over the top.

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I'm not sure that I see the disagreement.

Is your point that Browner was more important than folks are saying?

If Fletcher is replacing Browner, he will usually be covering the #2 corner, covering the #1 receiver with help from McCourty over the top.

Are you suggesting that Revis wasn't very important to us because he only covered one half of the field, the side with the #2 receiver and Chung? Who is going to be so good this year. Revis made Chung into a solid safety, by reducing his role.

mgteich said:

I'm not sure that I see the disagreement.

Is your point that Browner was more important than folks are saying?

If Fletcher is replacing Browner, he will usually be covering the #2 corner, covering the #1 receiver with help from McCourty over the top.

Are you suggesting that Revis wasn't very important to us because he only covered one half of the field, the side with the #2 receiver and Chung? Who is going to be so good this year. Revis made Chung into a solid safety, by reducing his role.

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Revis isn't here. He isn't coming back. The Patriots are now like the 27 other teams in the NFL who do not have a Revis, Peterson, Haden, or Sherman on their roster.

Let me ask you a question did you think that the defense was that much better in 2014 than it was in 2013? The stats suggest it wasn't. I think it was at times much better but not a huge differential.

Brady6 said:

Let me ask you a question did you think that the defense was that much better in 2014 than it was in 2013? The stats suggest it wasn't. I think it was at times much better but not a huge differential.

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I just threw up in my mouth

Zuma said:

I just threw up in my mouth

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You should spit it out and call your doctor.

Brady6 said:

Revis isn't here. He isn't coming back. The Patriots are now like the 27 other teams in the NFL who do not have a Revis, Peterson, Haden, or Sherman on their roster.

Let me ask you a question did you think that the defense was that much better in 2014 than it was in 2013? The stats suggest it wasn't. I think it was at times much better but not a huge differential.

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I think that we should make this post a sticky.

Almost all of us know and well understand that the 2014 defense was much better than the 2013 defense.

As is often the case, folks can interpret statistics to mean whatever they want. In this case, you've been convince that the 2014 defense wasn't much better than 2013.

mgteich said:

I think that we should make this post a sticky.

Almost all of us know and well understand that the 2014 defense was much better than the 2013 defense.

As is often the case, folks can interpret statistics to mean whatever they want. In this case, you've been convince that the 2014 defense wasn't much better than 2013.

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I find it amusing that you speak for others so often in an attempt to add strength to your post.

They finished 17th in passing yards allowed in 2014 and 18th in passing yards allowed in 2013. Teams threw against them more in 2013 than 2014 too.

So how were they better, well I can tell you one way they were better was against the run, and they had better LB play. Coverage wise I didn't think that Revis did anything more for the team than Talib did in the games he played in 2013. Well aside from having the name Revis on the back of his jersey. You talk about stats not being a factor all the time, well I might make that mistake but your mistake is that you base player performance on name awareness, not actual performance. You put way to much stock in a player having a notable name.

If you would like to provide some examples of what made the defense better. I see Revis as a player who gave up a touchdown to Baldwin in the SB, to Nelson in our loss to Green Bay, and was handled by Mike Wallace in week 1 of the season. He gave up 127 receiving yards to Thomas in the Broncos game, and Watkins beat him in the Bills game for a touchdown. So please take a look at the season and tell me what marquee WR Revis shutdown for us?

mgteich said:

I think that we should make this post a sticky.

Almost all of us know and well understand that the 2014 defense was much better than the 2013 defense.

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The 2014 Defense, after Browner's insertion into the lineup (debut was Jets game), allowed only 18.4 ppg, which was just about a full field goal less per game than the team allowed in 2013 (21.1). It also allowed fewer than 20 points in 5 of those 10 games, while surrendering more than 25 points just once. The 2013 team held opponents under 20 points only 5 times in 16 games, while surrendering more than 25 points 6 times.

That 2014 defense held 6 of its last 7 opponents to 20 points or fewer. Only Green Bay (26 points) topped 20 points during that stretch.