Seeking opinions for legal questions

Assuming that the appeals process fails, which I fully expect it to, and that the NFLPA, or Brady takes this to court:

Should Brady be exonerated in court, and his suspension completely vacated, will this not also, therefore, reverse judgement on the other two punishments, since by virtue of complete vacation, legal judgment/opinion would have been rendered that no wrongdoing was proven to have existed?

In that Brady is cleared of said wrongdoing, isn't the team and other team participants, therefore also cleared of any wrongdoing, since they cannot be complicit in something that was not proven to have existed?

Because for me, it would not make any sense at all, for Brady to be fully exonerated and the other two punishments to still stand.

I would imagine that any legal verdict that fully overturned Brady's punishment, would also be forced by legal proximity to overturn the other two punishments.

No. I am too lazy to say why, but someone else isn't.

The court of law could overturn Tom's suspension on simply a labor law basis with no prejudice or opinion on whether the event took place.
But let's assume the unlikely event that the court somehow ruled that the offense was proven NOT to have occurred.
Only Brady as a labor litigant is affected.
Goodell has full authority to punish teams. Nothing to do with Brady case.
It's irrational but so are the Wells report and the league office's over the top penalties.
Yep, it's irrational but Kraft not only voted for the Commissioner's authority but he just asked "Please sir, may I have another?"

PatsWickedPissah said:

The court of law could overturn Tom's suspension on simply a labor law basis with no prejudice or opinion on whether the event took place.
But let's assume the unlikely event that the court somehow ruled that the offense was proven NOT to have occurred.
Only Brady as a labor litigant is affected.

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That's the question I am asking- and I envisioning that in hiring Kessler, Brady is sending the message that he doesn't want a simple out, as a labor litigant. I feel that he would want a legal opinion or judgment in order to fully exonerate himself in court (forget about public opinion).

Could the team then take advantage of that?

Also, wouldn't the court also be forced by legal proximity to vacate the other punishments as well, since they are all related?

I would envision that he is pursuing a full vacation of his suspension, and as part of that is seeking to have his reputation completely cleared.

In this regard, isn't the "burden of proof" then on the NFL, since the justification for its punishment is being challenged?

I am by no means an expert on anything related to law, but from what I've read and have come to understand as far as I know the fine and draft picks are off the table at this point and the only thing that Brady is trying to do is have the suspension thrown out on the basis of impartiality from Goodell and no evidence justifying the penalty.

Once TB get's in front of anyone that is even slight fair, everything will be thrown out. Goodell will simply say there was a difference of opinion. What will be interesting is that this will be the fourth (or fifth) time that Goodell was reversed. Looking at what Tagliabue's decision:

From the start, the Saints had two justifiable reasons for complaint with Goodell's initial ruling:

1. They were unfairly singled out by the NFL for a practice that's been fairly commonplace around the league for decades;

And 2. The punishments were too severe, particularly in the case of the players.

Tagliabue agreed on both fronts. He accused Goodell of administering sanctions that were "selective," "ad hoc" and "inconsistent," and cited precedents in each player's case. Essentially, Tagliabue said the players were guilty of misconduct but not worthy of the extreme penalties Goodell imposed on them. What Jonathan Vilma, Anthony Hargrove and Will Smith did was wrong, Tagliabue said, but they shouldn't be arbitrarily punished when others who participated in the program were allowed to skate. Their misconduct merited a fine rather than suspensions.

This almost word for word what has happened to the Pats. I think any ruling should take into account Goodell's pattern of unjust dealings.

I'll be interested to see who works for the nfl again --- wells or tags

PatsWickedPissah said:

The court of law could overturn Tom's suspension on simply a labor law basis with no prejudice or opinion on whether the event took place.
But let's assume the unlikely event that the court somehow ruled that the offense was proven NOT to have occurred.
Only Brady as a labor litigant is affected.
Goodell has full authority to punish teams. Nothing to do with Brady case.
It's irrational but so are the Wells report and the league office's over the top penalties.
Yep, it's irrational but Kraft not only voted for the Commissioner's authority but he just asked "Please sir, may I have another?"

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The most ironic thing about this happening will be that the Wells Report exonerated the Patriots organization and condemned Brady on its BS innuendo. If a court rules that the evidence against Brady is horseshit (which it will), then Brady, who the Wells Report condemned, gets off, and the Patriots, who the Wells Report exonerated, gets penalized.

Just hilarious.

The only way the Patriots get the draft picks back is if Goodell is fired or resigns before next year's draft and the next commissioner corrects his mistake. The Patriots won't fight for them and nothing related to Brady's potential court case will directly impact the loss of them.

Besides what's been said before, it is not logically impossible that Jastremski and/or McNally did something wrong, in the hopes of pleasing Brady, without Brady having been guilty of giving them a clear push to cheat.

In that case, the team cheated even though Brady didn't.

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To be clear, I think this is unlikely on the facts, such as the pressure readings, or the circumstance that if McNally regularly cheated in that way, he had to be in the officials' locker room while he was doing it. But it's not legally illogical.

I am fairly confident that Brady and Kessler will not be asking the court to simply have the suspension vacated. As I have stated from the start, Brady wants to clear his name. The only way to do that is to prove that nothing happened other than normal physics. And when that happens, Kraft is going to look pretty stupid having accepted the punishment for the team doing nothing but complying with the league.

I am also fairly certain that Doty will take the league to task for it's poor protocols regarding the handling of the footballs. Doty may even go so far as to lambaste them for the clear bias in the report and the league's failure to fully investigate the situation. Such as the involvement of Kensil, Gardi and Grigson.

If you want to be precise, the report did NOT exonerate NE. It exonerated the coaches, execs, and owners. It accused three employees - TB, JJ, and JM. That's BS, but it did accuse them.

It is a well-settled legal doctrine that employers are responsible for on the job actions of employees (vicarious liability/respondeat superior).

So it is not intrinsically ridiculous for the league to punish NE even if no one in charge knew anything.

The problem is that the report is crap.

DaBruinz said:

... Doty will take the league to task for it's poor protocols regarding the handling of the footballs. Doty may even go so far as to lambaste them for the clear bias in the report and the league's failure to fully investigate the situation. Such as the involvement of Kensil, Gardi and Grigson.

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I'm no legal expert and will not comment beyond this. I'm pretty sure Doty retired and the judge is not going to be Doty. I could be wrong and misheard that.

Here are two statements from Reiss that makes him think this will be a fight to the bitter end (as do I; I also feel, as I have mentioned, that Brady will not settle for anything less than a full vacation of his suspension):

When the expected news was delivered Friday that NFL commissioner Roger Goodell is being advised by his lawyers to reject the NFL Players Association's motion to recuse himself as arbitrator for Tom Brady's appeal, it was described to me this way by someone close to Brady: Not desirable from a short-term perspective but something that could ultimately be a good thing long-term. What that told me is that Brady is digging in for a fight and, unlike owner Robert Kraft, he's prepared for it to go the distance.

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Count me among the believers that even if Goodell ultimately decides to reduce Brady's suspension from four games to two, as some have speculated, Brady wouldn't view it as anything close to a victory at that point. He'd likely still be inclined to pursue whatever avenues are available to him. In turn, the expectation is that the NFL will attempt to block any efforts of Brady's camp to take the league to court, so the lawyers will be busy. When I step back and consider how we got here, it is still amazing to me that Goodell has presided over a situation that has irreparably damaged the legacy and reputation of one of the greatest quarterbacks and ambassadors in the history of the game, relying on the anything-but-definitive Wells report in doing so, while failing to take any accountability from a league perspective for creating a swirling mess. It leaves a bad taste.

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http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england...768/quick-hit-thoughts-around-patriots-nfl-25

lurker1965 said:

I'm no legal expert and will not comment beyond this. I'm pretty sure Doty retired and the judge is not going to be Doty. I could be wrong and misheard that.

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Thought I read where he retired also, but upon further review Doty is still an active judge...

Wikipedia says he is still active and confirmed here..

http://www.fjc.gov/servlet/nGetInfo?jid=639&cid=999&ctype=na&instate=na

http://www.mnd.uscourts.gov/Judges/doty.shtml

The picks are at the NFL's discretion, it seems. The slight possibility of return is that we have almost a year to see what comes out. If the facts are bad for us, or remain as is, I think they're gone. However, if facts come out during the Brady process that exonerate the Patriots, the NFL would have little choice but to return the picks. I'm not remotely optimistic that will happen but it's certainly possible.

And that is why Kraft should have appealed, even if it would have been denied. If and when Brady is exonerated in court, Kraft could have gone back to the league and said that he wanted his appeal to be heard again in light of the court decision and it is an inconsistent decision to have the team punished based on an act in which the player was vindicated for the act....
Since he didn't appeal they can always say he waived that right...Good going Bob......

So Kraft was both gutless AND a moron

Fencer said:

Besides what's been said before, it is not logically impossible that Jastremski and/or McNally did something wrong, in the hopes of pleasing Brady, without Brady having been guilty of giving them a clear push to cheat.

In that case, the team cheated even though Brady didn't..

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If which case it's still issuing a death penalty for jaywalking.

BelichickFan said:

The picks are at the NFL's discretion, it seems. The slight possibility of return is that we have almost a year to see what comes out. If the facts are bad for us, or remain as is, I think they're gone. However, if facts come out during the Brady process that exonerate the Patriots, the NFL would have little choice but to return the picks. I'm not remotely optimistic that will happen but it's certainly possible.

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Hard to prove a negative, so what could these facts be? That there are no texts showing Brady wanted or requested balls to be less than 12.5 psi? That the ball pressure was wholly consistent with environmental conditions?