Would it take guts to appease the fans?

AndyJohnson said:

If the Chargers were ok to appeal not producing the towel, why wouldnt the Patriots appeal the part of the ruling that they didn't produce McNally? Their legal counsel was cooperative but Wells never answered their request for an explanation now. Why not bring McNally in as a show of cooperation and ask, if you accomplish nothing else to reduce the portion of the penalty that hinged upon non cooperation?

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The whole thing is hooey. It's a setup,even though the wells report ids a joke. Wake up and smell the coffee. Goodell will hear the appeal and he has already made his mind up, he's said so.

There is no "case" to appeal. It's a kangaroo court, a trumped up charge worthy of the old Soviet Union. Goodell has said the wells report is independent and justifies the punishment he gave. since you're appealing to him, and he trumped up the whole thing, please tell me why he is going to call himself a liar in his fake court.

Chiuba E. Obele said:

@RayClay So I guess my post wasn't worth responding to?

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I don't know which post, so i can't say. give me a post #. I'm certainly not refusing to respond, I can only type so fast.

Chiuba E. Obele said:

@RayClay So I guess my post wasn't worth responding to?

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Well, your post was two pages back, but out of courtesy, I went all the way back and read it. You're right.

RayClay said:

The whole thing is hooey. It's a setup,even though the wells report ids a joke. Wake up and smell the coffee. Goodell will hear the appeal and he has already made his mind up, he's said so.

There is no "case" to appeal. It's a kangaroo court, a trumped up charge worthy of the old Soviet Union. Goodell has said the wells report is independent and justifies the punishment he gave. since you're appealing to him, and he trumped up the whole thing, please tell me why he is going to call himself a liar in his fake court.

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Your logic is circular. Kraft shouldn't appeal because he can't win. Kraft can't win because all know Goodell won't let him. Goodell won't let him because he decided long ago he just wanted to screw the Patriots.
You have nothing to go on. Why would the league want to screw the Patriots?

Kraft can go into an appeal and make a case, and try to win.
You sound like the Patriots lost a game after quitting in the 4th quarter and you are blaming on the refs and asking why should they try since the refs are against them.
Its rather pathetic

RayClay said:

I'm going with the only logical way to unseat a tyrant with unlimited powers hired by the owners and a guy who couldn't buy the patriots so he bought a racetrack that had partial claim to the stadium, then the stadium, which put him into position nine years later to buy the team from someone who had intended to buy out his lease and move the team
to St. louis.

I guess if you want to think he's some dumb yokel who's every move is telegraphed, you can think that too.

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Your logic is faulty.

You're talking like you *know* he's trying to unseat Goodell when all evidence says otherwise. Then you build on that faulty logic by saying he isn't dumb because he's got some master plan. It's called an "Assumption Fallacy" where you assume something and build an argument on it.

You assume he wants to unseat Goodell and then you build a argument that says "he's playing it smart".

1) You have no evidence that he's trying to unseat Goodell
2) No one has claimed he's dumb. They've only claimed the he caved.

Again, you're in hoping and praying there's a "Magical Master Plan".

AndyJohnson said:

You have this backwards. They are not protecting Goodell they are protecting themselves from his incompetence. Everything he has touched has been a nightmare. Rice, Peterson, Hardy, the Cowboys and Redskins ridiculous penalties for breaking a non-existent law, Deflategate.
The NFLPA is embarrassing him in every dispute.
He is the owners mouthpiece.
What are the owners afraid of? The union gaining more power is all 1o of their top 10 worries.
Goodell loses at every turn and the NFLPA smells blood.
The owners came to Kraft and said you cannot challenge this boob because it will set another precedent that his authority is non-existent.
I can see Kraft sharing that concern, but throwing his own franchise under the bus because of it is a putrid, gutless, disloyal move.
The fact that Brady was thrown under the bus as well simply show a lack of character in Robert Kraft.
The worst is yet to come. When Brady sues the NFL, he is suing Kraft. He and Kessler won't stop with overturning the suspension, they will attack Goodells authority, the personal conduct plan, the 'more probably than not' standard, and if they can figure out how, the anti-trust exemption.
Brady vs Kraft et al is right around the corner.

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Well, the other owners have pledged support, their are at least a few owners who are openly trying to beat us through politics when hey can't on the field and the jets and Baltimore are as much as co-conspirators with goodell to be favored over other teams.

I don't think the situation will improve over night. I do think Kraft is as good a back room operator as anyone. He's proved it in business. You don't turn a local box company and your own related company into the largest private packaging company in the country by being a ****y, or not being able to read the board room tea leaves. [though he obviously misjudged goodell, maybe because he liked the big role in the league]

AndyJohnson said:

Why would the league want to screw the Patriots?

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Are you serious?

AndyJohnson said:

Your logic is circular. Kraft shouldn't appeal because he can't win. Kraft can't win because all know Goodell won't let him. Goodell won't let him because he decided long ago he just wanted to screw the Patriots.
You have nothing to go on. Why would the league want to screw the Patriots?

Kraft can go into an appeal and make a case, and try to win.
You sound like the Patriots lost a game after quitting in the 4th quarter and you are blaming on the refs and asking why should they try since the refs are against them.
Its rather pathetic

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Not only because he can't win, but because they have a labor-management case with union backing that has an excellent chance to not only win, or expose the league, but to open it up to labor issues that will cause an atmosphere that could damage goodell.

Very good reasons for a member of management not to get involved, no really good reason s to get involved except to get brownie points for "trying"

RayClay said:

But, that's what you want him to do to you.

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No, not exactly. Asserting the innocence of your team before a skeptical media, demanding that League Officials make apologies for unfounded accusations and malicious handling of information -- those were actions I considered to be gutsy by Kraft. But there's nothing gutsy in accepting a grossly harsh and undeserved punishment - especially when your star quarterback continues to be wrongly accused of "cheating." There's nothing gutsy at all about giving in to bullies or officials who conspire against your team. And yes, I feel that Kraft was kissing the NFL's ass - but even more so, committing an act of betrayal.

Why? Because for over three months, Kraft had styled himself as a leader who could advocate for the team. He wasn't placating fans like myself so he could become popular; he was simply doing what he felt (and what all of us knew) was the right thing to do. I brought into that, other fans believed in it, and the entire team was encouraged by him speaking out so publicly on their behalf. And then when the penalties where handed down, he called them unfair and beyond reasonable. He released his statement pledging unconditional support to his quarterback, and made a full legal rebuttal available to the public -- all while retooling his team's social media around the image of Tom Brady.

That whole time, Kraft made no mention of wanting to take "rhetoric" off the agenda. He made no mention of wanting to serve the interests of the collective or the 32 teams, or acknowledging how other fanbases "felt the opposite." And we certainly didn't see him cozying up with the Commissioner at parties and events. Yet all that changed this week

Kraft made it clear to us that the collective interests of the other 31 teams were -- for the time being -- more important to him than the needs of his own. There was no attempt at resistance. No demand for fair treatment. No recognition of the fans who have stood by him this entire time. No desire to stand for the reputation of the team. That's not only ass-kissing. That's ass-kssing at its worst!

RayClay said:

Well, your post was two pages back, but out of courtesy, I went all the way back and read it. You're right.

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Oops. While I'd figured I'd delete it and re-post it for your convenience. Oh well

FirstAndGoal said:

Your logic is faulty.

You're talking like you *know* he's trying to unseat Goodell when all evidence says otherwise. Then you build on that faulty logic by saying he isn't dumb because he's got some master plan. It's called an "Assumption Fallacy" where you assume something and build an argument on it.

You assume he wants to unseat Goodell and then you build a argument that says "he's playing it smart".

1) You have no evidence that he's trying to unseat Goodell
2) No one has claimed he's dumb. They've only claimed the he caved.

Again, you're in hoping and praying there's a "Magical Master Plan".

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While everyone else is acting like they "know" that Kraft is fine with this and a quitter. He's definitely pissed, he's stated it more than once [even though he's a prominent owner].

I personally think this will never end until goodell's gone and I think Kraft will work in the system to do it.

Someone needs to get 23 voted and that would come from inside IMO.

Kraft sounded like a defeated man to me @RayClay - and from what I've heard in reports, none of the owners seem interested at all in removing Goodell from power.

Chiuba E. Obele said:

Oops. While I'd figured I'd delete it and re-post it for your convenience. Oh well

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No offense, but you've started 5-10 threads all about Kraft being heroic. Works in the movies. In corporate America, not so much. I really didn't see much new to respond to and I do think if you watched this team some of the 40 years pre Brady BB you ight have a little better perspective on how hard it is to field a competitive team year after year. He ain't Victor Kiam.

RayClay said:

Are you serious?

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yes please explain what is in it for the league to find the Patriots guilty of something they didn't do then extort them into accepting the punsihment without fighting it
How does that help the league?
How would a league that does that not be fixing games?

RayClay said:

Not only because he can't win, but because they have a labor-management case with union backing that has an excellent chance to not only win, or expose the league, but to open it up to labor issues that will cause an atmosphere that could damage goodell.

Very good reasons for a member of management not to get involved, no really good reason s to get involved except to get brownie points for "trying"

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Kraft does not want Brady to win in court. He would be winning against Kraft, etal.

How does letting Brady fight his case help Kraft get his picks and money back?
Why fold your tent before Brady's appeal? His will come first.

Chiuba E. Obele said:

Kraft sounded like a defeated man to me @RayClay - and from what I've heard in reports, none of the owners seem interested at all in removing Goodell from power.

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Again, he's worth over 4 billion dollars based on his business moves. If you think you can look into his soul and read his inner thoughts in a video clip, more power to you. I imagine there were some businessmen who chuckled about how they took him in a deal who ended up going home wearing a barrel, because you can't ultimately lose too many battles and wing up with 4 billion.

No,the other owners aren't ready to can him, which is why he needs to be patient and sieze his opportunity. Like i said too many times, buying a crap race track, because the stadium was accidentally built on part of it, turned into the opportunity to buy the team 9 years later.

AndyJohnson said:

yes please explain what is in it for the league to find the Patriots guilty of something they didn't do then extort them into accepting the punsihment without fighting it
How does that help the league?
How would a league that does that not be fixing games?

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I don't know Andy. It seems to me the Goodell wants parity, has an incestuous relationship with the Jets and something with the Ravens management and is intentionally harming our team so we won't win as much.

If he wasn't, the inflate BS would have been a warning or at most, the 25,000 fine listed.

Why don't you tell me? What was the logical reason for the 5 million dollar scam investigation and the ridiculous punishment based on the idiotic, inconclusive report.

My only thought is, he is trying to get our team. I'd love to hear an alternative.

AndyJohnson said:

Kraft does not want Brady to win in court. He would be winning against Kraft, etal.

How does letting Brady fight his case help Kraft get his picks and money back?
Why fold your tent before Brady's appeal? His will come first.

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Goodell isn't going to rule against himself. why would he? Teams have no force of law, they approach prostrate and ask the dictator for mercy.

I suppose he could waste time and money on an appeal to set up a lawsuit, but i don't know what the grounds would be. Sue him for exercising the unlimited authority me and the other owners gave him?

Brady has a union opposed to management. The union has standing and a very good record against goodell.

RayClay said:

No offense, but you've started 5-10 threads all about Kraft being heroic.

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Well I wouldn't go that far. Most of my threads were speculative and were in anticipation of the Owner's Meeting. I commend Kraft for what he's done, but I've always felt as though he was the "weakest link" of the Bob-Bill-Brady chain: someone extremely business savvy and enthusiastic, but far too ingratiated into the NFL culture to fully advocate for the organization, when it came under attack. Some would argue that he's even lost touch with the fans - and Tuesday's fiasco was certainly proof of that!

RayClay said:

I do think if you watched this team some of the 40 years pre Brady BB you ight have a little better perspective on how hard it is to field a competitive team year after year. He ain't Victor Kiam.

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Can't help it Never had a choice to choose the year I was born. Besides, I fell in love with Brady long before I ever could appreciate Kraft. #TB12

RayClay said:

I don't know Andy. It seems to me the Goodell wants parity, has an incestuous relationship with the Jets and something with the Ravens management and is intentionally harming our team so we won't win as much.

If he wasn't, the inflate BS would have been a warning or at most, the 25,000 fine listed.

Why don't you tell me? What was the logical reason for the 5 million dollar scam investigation and the ridiculous punishment based on the idiotic, inconclusive report.

My only thought is, he is trying to get our team. I'd love to hear an alternative.

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Goodell has made it clear he is about discipline. He will find support for his image wherever he can get it. The Patriots happen to have been a convenient target.
I don't buy that Goodell is out to get the Patriots, he just has had the chance to earn his stripes on us.
Once there is suspicion he smells blood in the water and prays to stand up and act as if he is the protector of integrity.