How much credit do we owe Kraft for the success of this franchise?

Chiuba E. Obele said:

You have brains @PatsFanInVa.Maybe you can tell me why Kraft believe he doing what best for the fans? I don't doubt his sincerity, but his logic and sense of reasoning is totally beyond me!

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There's a thread on here called something like "In Defense of Robert Kraft." The OP in it is a fairly well-reasoned article. I partially disagree with it but some of it is spot on. The first thing I totally disagree with it is a line to the effect that the Pats aren't innocent. Others say it's a context-dependent line, because later he goes down the perception-is-reality route.

What I do agree with is that a court case could go on for months. This would be the news throughout the season. And in the end, Kraft would have the burden of proof, as the plaintiff.

The NFL set itself a low bar, then did not meet it. Kraft would have to meet at least a preponderance of evidence bar for whatever he's charging: Collusion by other teams, a conspiracy b/w the Colts and the league, defamation by the league, etc.

Now Goodell/NFL is the defendant.

So here's a case on why not to fight it - in that same spirit. I won't claim to completely buy it, but here it is.

First of all, the biz interests are effed up - Kraft would be suing himself, in essence (this is not from the article; it's just the obvious.) The Pats are one of the 32 clubs in the league. But let's say what the hell, it's time to go rogue, this cannot stand.

So Goodell the defendant gathers together every out of context text or interview line or whatevs. They claim it's part of their defense. They would have that right. Some of it would look damning, even if they already took their top 10 texts or so and trotted them out in the report. They still have #11-100, right? The pile-up of these leftovers would be endlessly spun against Brady & the Pats the same way as the leaks Goodell used.

The Pats would be seeking to prove (1) their case is explained by the Ideal Gas Law, that the league reversed a key witness' recollections to fit the story, etc; (2) A narrative about the logo gauge vs. no logo gauge... (3) various other down-in-the-weeds details.

So hit #1: Case goes on and on.
Hit #2: Pats have to go by evidence, league can air whatever innuendo it wants.

The big hit is hit #3: Kraft needs to prove the league's intent, in court. This is different from what the NFL did, which is claim various people's intent/actions, outside of a court. (And even before this, the league was leaking defamatory info to the media and then found they had to reverse the memory of an official to make their leaked narrative work. So they did.)

Let's say Kraft won. It would be "Yeah Kraft won, just like OJ was innocent. Look at the texts! (or that line from that one interview w/Brady, or whatever other damaging info the NFL uses in its defense). Oh yeah and the poor defendant moves to subpoena Brady's phone, of course. Every time he texted Gisele and said "let's get to work on #3" and Gisele said she had a headache becomes front page stuff. Or if Brady made a pass at a cheerleader, just flirting. Or whatever stupid crap you can think of. And of course, everything that actually IS about football. Or any horror that actually did happen - what if Brady isn't perfect? That shows up too... all supposedly important to the defense.

Let's say Kraft lost. Everybody worried about the Pats' reputation would have a lot more to worry about. Hell, they might even if Kraft won.

In return, we get to expose down-in-the-weeds details that 90% of people just don't follow.

I'm not a lawyer, I do communications. But I think Kraft left his options open in a very public way and built up an expectation. If he truly thought the legal route would hurt more than it helped he could have limited the damage. No hug, no "it's best for the shield and I love me some shield," no "I still respect the commish." He'd still have to accept what happened, but it would have been nice to see the charges dropped with a blistering "last word" critique, and then "we're on to Pittsburgh."

That would not change anything. It would be stagecraft and words. But it would at least match his buildup.

ausbacker said:

I have tremendous respect for Robert Kraft the businessman. Generally speaking, you don't fall into a billion plus fortune by pure dumb luck (unless you're an oligarch buying undervalued assets during a social revolution). I also respect Robert Kraft the owner because he's given Bill Belichick a carte blanche football platform. To me, this is his greatest strategic move. He was smart enough to learn from his prior experiences and gave Belichick the autonomy he needed to get the job done.

Now, pushing all that aside, I still find myself sitting in a chair of despair given what's transpired this week. I started wondering, if Belichick isn't the Patriots HC, if Brady isn't the QB, would the Patriots be who they are today because of Robert Kraft? Then I look at the Revolution and I see a good but not great franchise. Then my mind starts wandering contemplating all the reasons why Kraft has done what he's done and it keeps coming back to this exclusive boys club plus the commissar not the best interests of the fans as he would have us believe.

I respect Kraft for what he's done for fans of the Patriots but I don't like the path he's taken and the precedent he's established. One can only hope Jonathan has more fight in him because once the fans are lost, they are lost forever.

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all about taking advantage of opportunity........Kraft took advantage of the Pats success of the last 15 years to diversify his investment in Foxboro......some of it through revenue, but more of it through asset value......the team and the property are pretty consolidated which is why the team has the value that it does.

DarrylS said:

You all should go into the time machine and enjoy the ineptitude of Billy Sullivan, Victor Kiam and James Orthwein... if you think things are bad now, try a 1-15 season or the series of bad moves that plagued this team prior to Mr. Kraft buying it.. years of mediocrity, marked with occasional winning seasons...

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Couldn't agree more. While I'm pissed that Kraft rolled over to the league on this I was a Pats fan before Kraft and with any luck will be one after Kraft is long in his grave. The only good thin to come of this is a big good riddance to the front-running, sky is falling, Brady (only) fans.

Yeah there is a feel in this for me of "I'm a Brady fan not a Pats fan" when I see people saying they hope he asks to be traded. It reeks of 2001 Bandwagoners who made it through the "tough times" of 2005 or 2006.

PatsFanInVa said:

Yeah there is a feel in this for me of "I'm a Brady fan not a Pats fan" when I see people saying they hope he asks to be traded. It reeks of 2001 Bandwagoners who made it through the "tough times" of 2005 or 2006.

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On face value, it appears Kraft has thrown Brady under a bus. You should have expected this reaction from factions of Patsfans given without the combination of Belichick and Brady, it's more probable than not that Kraft has zero Super Bowls instead of four.

Given the raw emotion of it all, it's not surprising that people would be siding with Brady especially when he shredded the Adderhawks not too long along. We're playing what have you done for me lately? now. Brady won his fourth Super Bowl and Kraft gave up the fight. It's easy to see why people would take a position in favor of Brady.

ausbacker said:

On face value, it appears Kraft has thrown Brady under a bus. You should have expected this reaction from factions of Patsfans given without the combination of Belichick and Brady, it's more probable than not that Kraft has zero Super Bowls instead of four.

Given the raw emotion of it all, it's not surprising that people would be siding with Brady especially when he shredded the Adderhawks not too long along. We're playing what have you done for me lately now. Brady won his fourth Super Bowl and Kraft gave up the fight. It's easy to see why people would take a position in favor of Brady.

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Zolak made the point on radio today in regards to Kraft comment about helping the pats for the 'longer-term' .... he took that as 'after Brady', and it makes sense

Brady himself is 'too big' to be concerned with what Bob Kraft is thinking......Brady (and his wife are have a combined net worth heading towards $500M) may be worth more than some of the owners in the NFL, and he doesn't have the commitment of being one of the 32.....Goodell himself said that he has a great deal of respect and admiration for Brady, but people have to pay......Brady has the charisma, as well as the backing to see it the same way. Brady in the end will simply say 'it's not my fault that the NFL front office is comprised of a bunch of f*cking idiots'

The good news for the Brady/Kraft relationship is that it won't even come into play from here on out.......it wasn't going to make a difference anyway since league rules are what they are

ausbacker said:

On face value, it appears Kraft has thrown Brady under a bus. You should have expected this reaction from factions of Patsfans given without the combination of Belichick and Brady, it's more probable than not that Kraft has zero Super Bowls instead of four.

Given the raw emotion of it all, it's not surprising that people would be siding with Brady especially when he shredded the Adderhawks not too long along. We're playing what have you done for me lately now. Brady won his fourth Super Bowl and Kraft gave up the fight. It's easy to see why people would take a position in favor of Brady.

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Oh yeah it's easy to see the wedge. I bet the other fans love to see that (for what it's worth.)

But seriously... yes, and the disillusionment does go beyond bad optics. The way he let it unfold dropped the curtain, and displayed that OMG, even a beloved owner is thinking of his business first. When you think he's going to fight and he doesn't, suddenly Kraft is the devil and a money-grubbing billionaire. Well, he was before too then. He just made the mistake of leaving the impression that he was going to save the day.

We wanted and expected to somehow "win." Kraft built that expectation and then decided he couldn't. Correct call? Cowardice? Calculation? (My favorite...) Secret Plan?

I dunno. I actually think "Secret Plan" feels way too rosy to me. Until I see some reason to believe otherwise, he said what he said, we lost the draft picks, and we're moving on -- with blood all over the fan-base, it appears.

So my problem here is that he should have made the words/appearance of it square with his previous statements. Make the permanent break, emotionally, w/Goodell, and do it publicly. Not a hissy fit. A final salvo, and then dropping it - without the bow to the idea that Goodell was well-meaning.

That would matter at least a little. In the end the decision itself might be all that really matters, but the hug makes me sick.

I saw games at Nickerson, Fenway as a kid.
Never forgot the one Foxboro game.
Freezing cold metal bench for a seat.
Shaeffer Stadium "The one beer to have when you are having more than one".

After the sinks and toilets overflowed and flooded the bathrooms
lines formed at the trash barrels.
By the fourth quarter, as the many more than ones kicked in,
there were yellow streams flowing down the stairs.

With the Board of Health threatening the shut down the stadium just weeks before the season opener against the Oakland Raiders, Sullivan hired an emergency team to fix the flow control problems, and organized what has come to be known as The Great Flush. Members of the Patriots front office, stadium workers, local journalists and Sullivan himself organized into teams and were positioned throughout the stadium. At the sound of the scoreboard horn, everyone ran around, comically flushing every toilet to prove to the Board of Health that such a situation wouldn't happen again. One journalist wrote of the event, "it was the first time that the sportswriters in this town all pulled for the Patriots."

PatsFanInVa said:

Oh yeah it's easy to see the wedge. I bet the other fans love to see that (for what it's worth.)

But seriously... yes, and the disillusionment does go beyond bad optics. The way he let it unfold dropped the curtain, and displayed that OMG, even a beloved owner is thinking of his business first. When you think he's going to fight and he doesn't, suddenly Kraft is the devil and a money-grubbing billionaire. Well, he was before too then. He just made the mistake of leaving the impression that he was going to save the day.

We wanted and expected to somehow "win." Kraft built that expectation and then decided he couldn't. Correct call? Cowardice? Calculation? (My favorite...) Secret Plan?

I dunno. I actually think "Secret Plan" feels way too rosy to me. Until I see some reason to believe otherwise, he said what he said, we lost the draft picks, and we're moving on -- with blood all over the fan-base, it appears.

So my problem here is that he should have made the words/appearance of it square with his previous statements. Make the permanent break, emotionally, w/Goodell, and do it publicly. Not a hissy fit. A final salvo, and then dropping it - without the bow to the idea that Goodell was well-meaning.

That would matter at least a little. In the end the decision itself might be all that really matters, but the hug makes me sick.

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I've always thought owners were money grubbing devils so nothing has changed for me. My disappointment lies with the fact that I know the Patriots were fighting a losing battle it was more I wanted to rally behind Kraft and have him fight for Tom Brady. That's where it starts and ends for me.

Kraft had the opportunity to write himself into New England folklore as an immortal hero. He missed that opportunity for reasons many of us do not want to acknowledge as truth.

ausbacker said:

I've always thought owners were money grubbing devils so nothing has changed for me. My disappointment lies with the fact that I know the Patriots were fighting a losing battle it was more I wanted to rally behind Kraft and have him fight for Tom Brady. That's where it starts and ends for me.

Kraft had the opportunity to write himself into New England folklore as an immortal hero. He missed that opportunity for reasons many of us do not want to acknowledge as truth.

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I hear you Aus, but it's possible that he just added a lemon or two to a big pile of lemons that just weren't going to turn into lemonade.

PatsFanInVa said:

Yeah there is a feel in this for me of "I'm a Brady fan not a Pats fan" when I see people saying they hope he asks to be traded. It reeks of 2001 Bandwagoners who made it through the "tough times" of 2005 or 2006.

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I had to laugh at one poster who claimed he couldn't bring him/herself to watch in 2008 after the Brady injury. While I hated that Brady went down, and our SB chances with him, that added a different dimension of intrigue. And just for the record I'm NOT siding with Kraft.

mosey threetupu said:

I had to laugh at one poster who claimed he couldn't bring him/herself to watch in 2008 after the Brady injury. While I hated that Brady went down, and our SB chances with him, that added a different dimension of intrigue. And just for the record I'm NOT siding with Kraft.

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To me, that was one of our finest hours. Brady went down, and Cassel went 11-5. Cassel. It was a total fluke that they didn't make the playoffs that year... we had seasons like that in the past, "go 10-6 and don't make the playoffs? What is that?" But 11?

11 gets you in, that's almost an unwritten rule.