Maybe we just cheated?

Tunescribe · May 20, 2015

Wildo7 said:
They probably did "cheat." When did Pats fans get so stupid as to fall into the trap of taking the position that either they broke the rule or they deserve the punishment. It's never been about that (at least not for me). This is about the absurd overreaction in the media and amongst fans and the ridiculous punishment which lacks any and all sense of proportionality and likely violates the CBA. A punishment that Kraft has contributed to by creating the monster that is Goodell and now being either unable or unwilling to put him in check.

Who cares if they deflated the balls? Why did you all get sucked into being wingnuts who were certain the Pats were innocent in the first place. All you did is undermine our credibility and make us look like a bunch of farcical crazies in denial. Instead the argument is and always was that the Pats were targeted for a minor rules violation, the media started spinning an absurd narrative and the Pats were forced to deny it because god only knows what would have happened had they admitted it before the superbowl. Then we were hit with the hammer because Kraft's boy is an incompetent union-buster whose faulty barometer for public outrage dictates his every action and that's how the owners likes it.

Bah. The Wells report was a biased, contrived prosecution based on flimsy conjecture. Look at its "facts." Yes, the media overreacted because it wanted Wells' conclusion to be true and didn't care about its content. But to call us "farcical crazies in denial" for taking a rational view of this witch hunt makes you look like a knee-jerk cynical fool (a la Felger).

realtime · May 20, 2015

Wildo7 said:
They probably did "cheat." When did Pats fans get so stupid as to fall into the trap of taking the position that either they broke the rule or they deserve the punishment. It's never been about that (at least not for me). This is about the absurd overreaction in the media and amongst fans and the ridiculous punishment which lacks any and all sense of proportionality and likely violates the CBA. A punishment that Kraft has contributed to by creating the monster that is Goodell and now being either unable or unwilling to put him in check.

Who cares if they deflated the balls? Why did you all get sucked into being wingnuts who were certain the Pats were innocent in the first place. All you did is undermine our credibility and make us look like a bunch of farcical crazies in denial. Instead the argument is and always was that the Pats were targeted for a minor rules violation, the media started spinning an absurd narrative and the Pats were forced to deny it because god only knows what would have happened had they admitted it before the superbowl. Then we were hit with the hammer because Kraft's boy is an incompetent union-buster whose faulty barometer for public outrage dictates his every action and that's how he likes it.

One of my greatest frustrations with this absurd process was the incompetent internal investigation that Kraft apparently ran -- if you can call asking BB and Brady one yes or no question an "investigation".

Just figure out exactly what the hell happened under your own roof and then, based on what you find out, either fall on your sword right away (shortly after the SB) or fight it to the bitter end.

Kraft did neither and, as a result, put himself, his team and his fans into an intolerable position.

Tunescribe · May 20, 2015

BobDigital said:
I think there is a good chance the Pats did cheat.

"Good" chance? Based on WHAT? The Wells report?

Jangles · May 20, 2015

AndyJohnson said:
If we cheated, then we probably will rule the world because we figure out a way to deflate footballs and then also have them back to exactly that correct psi they should be at at halftime.
How could we cheat if the footballs measured exactly what footballs that started at 12.5 psi would measure after being outside that day?
Did we commute the laws of physics?

Maybe

Stranger things have happened.

2 days ago I would have thought it more likely we could break the laws of physics than Kraft would sell out his team and his fans.

realtime · May 20, 2015

BobDigital said:
I think there is a good chance the Pats did cheat. However the punishment is way over the top as was the need for an independent investigation.

Just fine them and take a 4th or 5th and be done with it like you would anyone else. This is a speeding ticket and the Pats got busted for a DUI,

Someone (perhaps on Grantland) described the penalties as something like a lifetime achievement award for cheating. I think there is probably some truth to the idea that that's how the league viewed it. For them, the punishment wasn't about the footballs as much as it was about past transgressions (real and imagined) along with the team's limited obstruction of the Wells investigation.

BobDigital · May 20, 2015

Tunescribe said:
"Good" chance? Based on WHAT? The Wells report?

Based on information I read in and not in the Wells report. Well's opinion by itself means nothing. His determination on the matter is meaningless to me. There is no certainty though, not by a mile. Just enough suspicious things to make me say "meh, 55/45".

BobDigital · May 20, 2015

realtime said:
Someone (perhaps on Grantland) described the penalties as something like a lifetime achievement award for cheating. I think there is probably some truth to the idea that that's how the league viewed it. For them, the punishment wasn't about the footballs as much as it was about past transgressions (real and imagined) along with the team's limited obstruction of the Wells investigation.

Limited obstruction (which was really overblown cause of how limited the obstruction was) is one thing. The truth is the Pats do nothing different than every other team in the NFL does. This is just the league mad about the Pats continuing to win in a league where you can be booted out of your job for just 1 bad year. Basically I think the Pats are a threat to their livelihood and they don't like it.

Tunescribe · May 20, 2015

BobDigital said:
Based on information I read in and not in the Wells report. There is no certainty though, not by a mile. Just enough suspicious things to make me say "meh, 55/45".

Please share that information, either via link or paraphrase. Because I have seen/heard NOTHING even remotely factual in this case.

Ring 6 · May 20, 2015

Jangles said:
Maybe

Stranger things have happened.

2 days ago I would have thought it more likely we could break the laws of physics than Kraft would sell out his team and his fans.

What? You think that the footballs that measured what 12.5 would based on the elements were deflated to less than 12.5?
You are saying the laws of physics don't apply.
And you are basing this on someone you do not know doing something you didn't expect?

Come on.

Ring 6 · May 20, 2015

BobDigital said:
Based on information I read in and not in the Wells report. Well's opinion by itself means nothing. His determination on the matter is meaningless to me. There is no certainty though, not by a mile. Just enough suspicious things to make me say "meh, 55/45".

How do you explain that the footballs measured exactly what they should without deflation?

captain insano · May 20, 2015

signbabybrady said:
I have been bashing Kraft for a shade under 24 hours now.

And IMO there are only two valid outcomes. Kraft acted on behalf of his wallet or we actually cheated.

I almost want to believe we cheated because the other option feels so insulting.

even if brady did have some air removed it still doesnt mean the team [player]should get 4 games and 2 picks punishment. are you kidding me. that should be a small fine at worst. this whole thing is a pathetic joke. theres already reports that kraft will try to get brady to accept his punishment. all these media idiots and the rest of the league acting like some major rules violation happened are hypocrits. i cant see how anybody can take any of this and the nfl seriously anymore

BobDigital · May 20, 2015

Tunescribe said:
Please share that information, either via link or paraphrase. Because I have seen/heard NOTHING even remotely factual in this case.

McNally threatening to go to ESPN. That looks bad and I don't think the Pats gave a good explanation
McNally taking the balls into the bathroom in the first place and the particular one he choose
No follow up in person interview for McNally
Brady Refusing to hand over his phone or text
I don't believe Brady did not know McNally. I think he lied and why lie?

Just those things and some other. Not proof at all but reasonable suspicion... slightly over 50%. Now if you want to ask do I believe slightly over 50% should be the threshold for a penalty I think not. I think it you should need to be a bit closer to "Certain" before handing a penalty out. However that is not how the NFL works sadly.

In a perfect would that would be how it works and I would say "there is not enough here going by the letter of the NFL law".

jlu52 · May 20, 2015

All I know is that Kraft cheated. He's cheated every loyal Patriots fan, by lying with the dogs who have been smearing him, his team, and their fans for many years now. **** you, Kraft, you're one of those dogs now too!

Beethree · May 20, 2015

I take the Wells report as exoneration. Not only does it not make me think cheating was more "probable than not", but it makes me say....hmmmmm possible, but highly unlikely. Here's the thing: If the balls were not deflated, even if there were footage of Giselle in a black cape skulking down the sidelines waving a needle and laughing maniacally, there is no infraction. And the numbers indicate way more probably than not that there was no infraction. It is not out of blind trust of Brady that I don't think there was cheating, and it is not just, "You can't prove it." To me, the clearest interpretation of the hard evidence is that it DIDN'T happen.

dales804 · May 20, 2015

AndyJohnson said:
Did we commute the laws of physics?

I would say so. And Brady was probably generally aware of it.

captain insano · May 20, 2015

BobDigital said:
McNally threatening to go to ESPN. That looks bad and I don't think the Pats gave a good explanation
McNally taking the balls into the bathroom in the first place and the particular one he choose
No follow up in person interview for McNally
Brady Refusing to hand over his phone or text
I don't believe Brady did not know McNally. I think he lied and why lie?

Just those things and some other. Not proof at all but reasonable suspicion... slightly over 50%. Now if you want to ask do I believe slightly over 50% should be the threshold for a penalty I think not. I think it you should need to be a bit closer to "Certain" before handing a penalty out. However that is not how the NFL works sadly.

In a perfect would that would be how it works and I would say "there is not enough here going by the letter of the NFL law".

who cares how it looks? who cares if they did it? we are talking about taking a small amount of air from the god damn football. any other team and theres no story here.

fair catch fryar · May 20, 2015

BobDigital said:
I think there is a good chance the Pats did cheat. However the punishment is way over the top as was the need for an independent investigation.

Just fine them and take a 4th or 5th and be done with it like you would anyone else. This is a speeding ticket and the Pats got busted for a DUI,

Please define "cheating".

BobDigital · May 20, 2015

AndyJohnson said:
How do you explain that the footballs measured exactly what they should without deflation?

We don't know exactly what they should have measured. The Wells report said something like 1.1 or whatever it was. That is incorrect. They did not properly include the rain variable IMO. in other experiments in which balls were simulated with rain conditions it dropped to below 1.7. The Patriots measurements were actually above this mark.

However it can also be illustrated that the ball once dried and brought in doors gains PSI fairly rapidly. How long were they in inside and what is the average PSI gained after they are brought inside from similar conditions per minute? At what exact minute did they start to measure the balls?

5? 6? 7? 8 minutes? This was not gone over in the report so honestly we don't know what it should have measured. I found the science in the report to be meaningless either way cause these things were not explored and these factors were unknown.

BobDigital · May 20, 2015

captain insano said:
who cares how it looks? who cares if they did it? we are talking about taking a small amount of air from the god damn football. any other team and theres no story here.

What makes you think I disagree with that? Of course it was overblown and of course if it was any other team no one would really care. It be a fine, a minor draft pick (maybe... not certainly) and a hand wage saying "don't do it again". When have I ever said this penalty was even remotely appropriate? At worse it should get what the Falcons got.. AT WORST.

BobDigital · May 20, 2015

fair catch fryar said:
Please define "cheating".

cheat means doing something the rules say not to do. So like I said... pretty much what every team does.

Maybe we just cheated?

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