Patriots Release Additional Deflategate E-mails

Deus Irae said:

That's not where the chain started.

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Ok, so you want to argue just for the sake of arguing. I'm out.

skinnydog said:

Sorry, Dues, but for the "prosecution" theoretical possible opportunities do not hold up well. And nobody in the world gives a ****e about whether the NY Daily News can stick a needle in and out of balls under 90 seconds. I agree with most of your points about the Wells report, but not your suggestion that the NY Daily New video proves this was a realistic opportunity is way off base. You can say that the 100 second bathroom trip is an opportunity, but that video does not get you there.

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You, like several others here, are confusing what you want with what actually is. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is.

And, yes, people do give a **** about whether or not the balls can be deflated in 90 seconds. That's why it was addressed in the report:

Finally, Exponent was asked to investigate how quickly an individual can
partially deflate thirteen footballs in a ball bag using a sports ball inflation needle, if that
individual is reasonably experienced in performing that task. Based on a series of simulations,
Exponent determined that the air pressure in thirteen footballs could be readily released using a
needle in well under one minute and forty seconds.

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kjw said:

Ok, so you want to argue just for the sake of arguing. I'm out.

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I'm not arguing just for the sake of arguing. Hell, I'm just trying to get the pretty simple concept of opportunity in this case across to people who are fighting it for no real reason.

I know where the string started. It did not start where you claimed, sorry. It started with my response to Dr. Pain. Mack Herron picked it up from there and the chain was in motion.

Deus Irae said:

You, like several others here, are confusing what you want with what actually is. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is.

And, yes, people do give a **** about whether or not the balls can be deflated in 90 seconds. That's why it was addressed in the report:

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Well that's a little different than the NY Daily News video and whether it can be done accurately is important. I'll take a look at that section of the Exponent report when I can, but in this case assuming the non-logo gauge was used initially and factoring in the ideal gas law leaves us with .3 or .4 psi of the half time numbers, so McNally has to be that accurate in the bathroom. Good luck to the "prosecutor" selling that

I think Deus' point is that the guy in the bathroom for only 100 seconds is not a silver bullet that can exonerate the Pats. Conversely, 100 seconds in the bathroom is not going to be the somking gun for the prosecution. It's possible that it could or could not have happened, nothing magical about the trip. Just another data point in a series of more probably or probably not.

Deus Irae said:

Several people did the deflating test within 90 seconds.

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Since you only have to deflate 3 footballs a trivial and insignificant amount in order to obtain the actual measurements (using best evidence and an assumption of a 12.5 starting PSI), you can see that this is readily doable.

People keep harping on the fact that 90 seconds would not be enough time to accurately measure the PSI and bring it down to a tareted level. Which is very true. But that ignores the possibility that McNally thought he was short of time and decided that even if he couldn't bring the ball PSI level down exactly it was better to do it inexactly than nothing at all. So he takes a needle and sticks it in the ball, counts to 2, and then moves on to the next one. Not optimal but better than nothing at all. In the end the ball is a bit softer, which is the entire point.

That bathroom break will neither damn or exonerate us. Someone needs to investigate other games and the opportunities that McNally may have had to deflate the balls prior to them. If no opportunities can be found then it can be safely concluded that he did not tamper with the balls because there is no way he'd do it for just a single game. If on the other hand its discovered that McNally acted suspicious with the balls prior to other games then there is a problem.

Deus Irae said:

Don't over think the process. It does nobody any favors. The balls wouldn't need to fit exact PSI specifications. They'd just need to have been deflated some and made easier for Brady to grip.

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The evidence (never refuted or questioned that I'm aware of) already shows that none of the Patriots quarterbacks can tell the difference at 1 PSI much less .3 or .5 PSI difference.

So, no, they would have had to be deflated significantly (at least 1.5 PSI if not more?) if the purpose was to make them easier for Tom Brady to grip. At least that's the evidence so far on the table.

I still can't see how any of this information or the texts are relevant. The simple facts are that Exponent's experiments and Anderson's word put the balls at the PSI that they were supposed to be at and therefor there was absolutely no tampering thus making all other accusations irrelevant.

juny said:

I think Deus' point is that the guy in the bathroom for only 100 seconds is not a silver bullet that can exonerate the Pats. Conversely, 100 seconds in the bathroom is not going to be the somking gun for the prosecution. It's possible that it could or could not have happened, nothing magical about the trip. Just another data point in a series of more probably or probably not.

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Absolutely. But it's insane to assign guilt when the other option (using the bathroom) is the actual intent of the location. To assume, without other facts, that the guy went into the bathroom in order to not use the bathroom makes no sense.

Deus Irae said:

It's not remotely improbable or ridiculous. It also wouldn't require taking all the balls out of the bag and putting them on the floor.

Again, let's not blindly follow. Let's use our own heads.

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Actually, it is both remotely improbably and ridiculous as the evidence clearly indicates that there is no advantage to Brady (or any other QB) to have footballs deflated by .3 PSI per football. He (and all others that we know of) can't even tell the difference! Why the Wells report never addressed this (rather obvious) point is just another example of the huge bias in the report.

juny said:

I think Deus' point is that the guy in the bathroom for only 100 seconds is not a silver bullet that can exonerate the Pats. Conversely, 100 seconds in the bathroom is not going to be the somking gun for the prosecution. It's possible that it could or could not have happened, nothing magical about the trip. Just another data point in a series of more probably or probably not.

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Deus referred to a video which showed it is possible to stick a needle in 11 balls while in the bathroom. So it is possible to deflate 11 footballs. On the other hand, the video did not show any measurements of the balls, so we don't know how much air was removed and whether the pressures of the balls was as consistent as the balls in the game. If a sloppy job as the goal, it was possible. If a more precise job was sought, it may or may not have been possible. The amount of air alegedly released is also important, because we are talking about undetectable (by feel) levels and not hte 2 ilbs hte NFL falsely accused the Patriots of releasing.

It is absolutely impossible for a proper job to have been done within 90 seconds. But a sloppy job is just as much illegal tampering as one done well.

juny said:

I think Deus' point is that the guy in the bathroom for only 100 seconds is not a silver bullet that can exonerate the Pats. Conversely, 100 seconds in the bathroom is not going to be the somking gun for the prosecution. It's possible that it could or could not have happened, nothing magical about the trip. Just another data point in a series of more probably or probably not.

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Bingo

Time needs to be spent trying to figure out the location of McNally and the balls in every home game going back at least a year. Interview refs, officials, anyone who deals with him behind the scenes. This is all stuff that should have been covered in the investigation in the first place!

TruthSeeker said:

Actually, it is both remotely improbably and ridiculous as the evidence clearly indicates that there is no advantage to Brady (or any other QB) to have footballs deflated by .3 PSI per football. He (and all others that we know of) can't even tell the difference! Why the Wells report never addressed this (rather obvious) point is just another example of the huge bias in the report.

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Reality (based upon evidence): McNally was in the bathroom for about 100 seconds
Reality (based upon evidence): The balls can be taken into a bathroom and deflated in under 90 seconds
Reality (based solely upon the 2 pieces of evidence above): McNally had enough time to give him AN OPPORTUNITY to deflate the balls.

The rest (Brady likes them at ____, can't be exact, etc...) is irrelevant to the reality above. You, along with several others, are confusing the existence of evidence with your opinion regarding the persuasiveness of that evidence. It's the same thing that RayClay refused to get through his skull some time back.

Deus Irae, post: 4216284, member: 5686"]
Reality (based upon evidence): McNally was in the bathroom for about 100 seconds
That is proof he was in the bathroom alright. Good point.

Reality (based upon evidence): The balls can be taken into a bathroom and deflated in under 90 seconds
uh..it is also a "reality" that balls can be taken into the bathroom and NOTHING is done to them as McNally drains his vein

Reality (based solely upon the 2 pieces of evidence above): McNally had enough time to give him AN OPPORTUNITY to deflate the balls.
also based on the info about, McNally had enough time to take a squirt, zip his pants and leave after just urinating

There are now SEVEN BILLION people alive on this planet. The reality that only ONE human out of seven billion went in a bathroom and used his time in there to deflate footballs and therefore PROOF enough to suspend a QUARTERBACK for four games and destroy the future roster building of a franchise, THAT reality is one I would want PROVED absolutely, unequivocally and without question.

The REALITY is there is NO EVIDENCE of pressure documentation by the head referee before McNally taking possession, just hearsay. There is no documentation of air pressure after McNally leaves the bathroom until an ENTIRE HALF of football is played in conditions that have been shown to affect air pressure in footballs.

Then there is the "reality" of motive, which it seems the media and the NFL, in particular, refuses to even entertain. An NFL kangaroo court is NOT a legal "reality" A federal district court is though. Let's see Kensil sworn and on the stand in federal court in Boston. I'll watch THAT reality show the rest of the year.

Joker said:

uh..it is also a "reality" that balls can be taken into the bathroom and NOTHING is done to them as McNally drains his vein

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Yes. The Patriots were not, however, charged with the failure to deflate NFL footballs.

VectorPrime said:

It is absolutely impossible for a proper job to have been done within 90 seconds. But a sloppy job is just as much illegal tampering as one done well.

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But we know that a sloppy job was not done. So it was either not done or it was done with an accuracy consistent with the measurements.

I can deflate them with a shotgun in 10 seconds. Would that mean the Patriots only needed 10 seconds? Or would a test using quality of the alleged deflation be necessary for gauging time?