Patriots Legal Counsel Rebuttal of Wells Report

wolverinejoe80 said:

no we didn't have to. we didn't have to explain everything. it really was a bad move because just look around. they don't talk about anything but the weight loss.

if i'm kraft, i'm furious.

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Who really cares about that? Who was on our side before but isn't now?

AndyJohnson said:

You are making my point.
The only way to find guilt is to say everyone is lying. The only way to CREDIBLY say everyone is lying is to have EVIDENCE TO CONTRADICT. There is no evidence to contradict. The only 'evidence' is Wells interpretation of texts, which the texter and recipient explained and he called a lie.
Under that standard everyone is guilty of everytihng.
Did you do it?
No.
You are lying, you clearly did it. Based upon my disbelief of your answer you are clearly guilty.

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I think you are describing Wells' behavior in this case accurately and to that extent I agree.

However, more generally, questioning a witness over a lengthy period of time gives the examiner the opportunity to assess witness credibility. Your point was that "a statement by a witness is not refuted by a lawyer saying he thinks its a lie, its refuted by EVIDENCE to the contrary." If you mean witness credibility doesn't matter, that is simply not the case. If you mean a lawyer questioning a witness cannot direct the finder of fact (judge, jury) to find that the witness is lying, then you are right.

wolverinejoe80 said:

ok, look. we all love our team and we will defend them till death. but let's take off the homer glasses here.

the whole 'deflater' is about weight-loss is just plain stupid. it's idiotic. no matter how you slice it, it should not have included in the report. i don't care if that was the truth. i don't care if mcnally's middle name is deflatorian living in deflateville. you can't just put that in this 'serious' rebuttal report because only outcome is a mockery by entire media and haters all over the country. cnn, fox, every media is mocking at us and we have nobody to blame but us because we didn't have to put that out there.

this really hurts. i thought we are smarter than that.

and they still haven't fixed the typo. 'professer'
http://wellsreportcontext.com/mackinnons-scientific-conclusion/

this whole thing looks so amateur. i'm very disappointed. this was a great idea, but a bad execution.


we had a chance to hit a home run.
IMO, we blew it.

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Do yourself a favor and take a few minutes this legal exchange (below). The Pats do not care what the haters are talking about (that's just noise). They were looking to add some "context" to the report, which is legaleaze for "setting the future strategy" of a protracted legal battle.

The mistake you are making is that you thing that this is for the "crowd", when in actuality, it is likely to be used as part of a their defamation or anti-trust litigation (if it comes to that) which will use the Wells report (which convienetly left much of this context out) in combination with evidence that this was a "sting" operation in the first place to prove that the NFL had a pre-determined outcome in which it used to hurt the franchise, it's marquee player and it's brand.

juny said:

http://abovethelaw.com/2015/05/shou...d-roger-goodell-a-deflategate-email-exchange/

interesting take from non-boston lawyer

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wolverinejoe80 said:

no we didn't have to. we didn't have to explain everything. it really was a bad move because just look around. they don't talk about anything but the weight loss.

if i'm kraft, i'm furious.

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Yes, they did have to.

TomPatriot said:

I think you are describing Wells' behavior in this case accurately and to that extent I agree.

However, more generally, questioning a witness over a lengthy period of time gives the examiner the opportunity to assess witness credibility. Your point was that "a statement by a witness is not refuted by a lawyer saying he thinks its a lie, its refuted by EVIDENCE to the contrary." If you mean witness credibility doesn't matter, that is simply not the case. If you mean a lawyer questioning a witness cannot direct the finder of fact (judge, jury) to find that the witness is lying, then you are right.

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Of course credibility matters.
Asking the who 'he' was getting an answer, then a phone call corroborating the details of what 'he asked about' and felt you were 'stressed about' and concluding it is not credible because I think the text really meant something else with no proof to contradict or any testimony otherwise is not a valid dismissal of the credibility of the witness.

In other words, the only 'evidence' that The Deflator and Dorito Dink lied is that Wells decided they must have. Absent anything to back that up other than his opinion, you cannot question the credibility of the witnesses.
In other words "Nah, I just don't believe you" is not evidence.

wolverinejoe80 said:

ok, look. we all love our team and we will defend them till death. but let's take off the homer glasses here.

the whole 'deflater' is about weight-loss is just plain stupid. it's idiotic. no matter how you slice it, it should not have included in the report. i don't care if that was the truth. i don't care if mcnally's middle name is deflatorian living in deflateville. you can't just put that in this 'serious' rebuttal report because only outcome is a mockery by entire media and haters all over the country. cnn, fox, every media is mocking at us and we have nobody to blame but us because we didn't have to put that out there.

this really hurts. i thought we are smarter than that.

and they still haven't fixed the typo. 'professer'
http://wellsreportcontext.com/mackinnons-scientific-conclusion/

this whole thing looks so amateur. i'm very disappointed. this was a great idea, but a bad execution.


we had a chance to hit a home run.
IMO, we blew it.

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I don't think you're really thinking this through.

If the Pats had left the deflator texts out of the report, everyone would have asked, what about the deflator texts? You would recommend what, then? To say, "yeah, we have the explanation behind that, but we're afraid you'll think it's silly. So we know...but we'll tell you later."

You think the explanation is silly? It is silly. Newsflash: everything about this fiasco is silly. They had to include it.

AndyJohnson said:

In other words, the only 'evidence' that The Deflator and Dorito Dink lied is that Wells decided they must have. Absent anything to back that up other than his opinion, you cannot question the credibility of the witnesses.
In other words "Nah, I just don't believe you" is not evidence.

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Exactly.......... and the only reason that Wells can conclusively point to that justifies his assertion that someone is lying is the Eponent (or whatever the fraudulant scientific company's name is) report that "concludes" that the football's MUST have been tampered with.

Without that claim, which has been already been thoroughly debunked by numerous credible scientific minds, there is no reason to believe that anyone lied about anything, or even had anything to lie about. So, it comes back to the science after all. Question all you want about the "he said, she said" meaning of the text messages, but the bottom line is that they will never be able to get around the science, which is says "more likely then not" that the balls were not tampered with.

Clayton is yet another person who says this report means that Bob Kraft will not file an appeal or take this to court.

JackBauer said:

Who really cares about that? Who was on our side before but isn't now?

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we give them more materials to talk about. we didn't have to. instead of people talking about great clippers collapse, lebron beating bulls again, they are talking about us. we didn't have to do this. people were getting tired of this. fire was dying IMO.

Patriot_in_NY said:

Do yourself a favor and take a few minutes this legal exchange (below). The Pats do not care what the haters are talking about (that's just noise). They were looking to add some "context" to the report, which is legaleaze for "setting the future strategy" of a protracted legal battle.

The mistake you are making is that you thing that this is for the "crowd", when in actuality, it is likely to be used as part of a their defamation or anti-trust litigation (if it comes to that) which will use the Wells report (which convienetly left much of this context out) in combination with evidence that this was a "sting" operation in the first place to prove that the NFL had a pre-determined outcome in which it used to hurt the franchise, it's marquee player and it's brand.

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i get your point, but nobody will take our strategy seriously when we insult people's intelligence.

Deus Irae said:

Yes, they did have to.

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I disagree. why give them a late night joke material? why? common sense did not apply when they brought that out. our reputation is permanently damaged. if you think public opinion(noise) isn't important then you aren't looking around. just look at how the world is going. we live in a social media era. social media age real. it changed the world. public opinion matters.

aluminum seats said:

I don't think you're really thinking this through.

If the Pats had left the deflator texts out of the report, everyone would have asked, what about the deflator texts? You would recommend what, then? To say, "yeah, we have the explanation behind that, but we're afraid you'll think it's silly. So we know...but we'll tell you later."

You think the explanation is silly? It is silly. Newsflash: everything about this fiasco is silly. They had to include it.

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people will say 'they left out this and that'. but many reasonable pepole would've focused on the great argument we provided too.

but we gave the media and comedians late night joke material. another saturday night skit on pats legal team is coming.

i hate the fact that people are laughing at us.

wolverinejoe80 said:

I disagree. why give them a late night joke material? why? common sense did not apply when they brought that out. our reputation is permanently damaged. we are not only trying to win the appeal, but also win the public opinion. if you think public opinion(noise) isn't important then you aren't looking around and how the world is going. we live in a social media era. social media age real. it changed the world.

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Disagree all you want, but you're arguing against the obvious. They couldn't respond to the issues without responding to the issues. It's that simple.

QuantumMechanic said:

Whether or not I buy it, not many people are -- and the rebuttal is already being widely mocked and dismissed because of this one thing.

To the extent this rebuttal is supposed to serve as a PR counterattack it was really, really stupid of them to put that claim in.

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there is a post on this site dealing with this exact issue and one of the posters Googled the word Deflator and found many hits concerning deflategate after jumping to eight pages he found numerous sites using Deflate as a weight loss term, Deflate your waist etc. Plus the text ends in JKT which is text speak for jacket which fits the end of the sentence perfectly, "give the Jacket away."

Deus Irae said:

Disagree all you want, but you're arguing against the obvious. They couldn't respond to the issues without responding to the issues. It's that simple.

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they could've simply said they call themselves 'deflaters' because they deflate football to a proper psi, making sure refs don't over inflate.

weight loss? that's just not smart. they are better than that.

wolverinejoe80 said:

they could've simply said they call themselves 'deflaters' because they deflate football to a proper psi, making sure refs don't over inflate.

weight loss? that's just not smart. they are better than that.

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You are making the assumption that their explanation is a lie, and arguing that they should have chosen a better one. That's an assumption with no evidence.

wolverinejoe80 said:

they could've simply said they call themselves 'deflaters' because they deflate football to a proper psi, making sure refs don't over inflate.

weight loss? that's just not smart. they are better than that.

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You seem to be disregarding the possibility that this is the truth...

@smurfalarm @Charlotte Pats Fan @ANGR89 @BradyFTW! It's a difficult time being a Pats fan, especially outside of NE. You are now officially part of America's most isolated, and hated fanbase:



There's got to be an expression for something like this.....refusal to back down from Patriot pride despite being surrounded by haters...hmm....how bout' 'Brady Strong'?

wolverinejoe80 said:

they could've simply said they call themselves 'deflaters' because they deflate football to a proper psi, making sure refs don't over inflate.

weight loss? that's just not smart. they are better than that.

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What would you have them do? Lie out their ass?

Lying to cover up the truth no matter how silly the truth is is worse than the truth being silly.

A stated, if they mentioned nothing about deflate the media idiots would have railed on about that - "See the Pats had no answer for it blah blah blah"

wolverinejoe80 said:

they could've simply said they call themselves 'deflaters' because they deflate football to a proper psi, making sure refs don't over inflate.

weight loss? that's just not smart. they are better than that.

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You realize that what Goldberg wrote were the answers that he was given by The Deflator and Dorito Dink correct?
Are you suggesting that the best way to handle the defense against being wrongly accused is to make up a lie that is different than what the person who wrote the text told you, so that then when they testify at the hearing they tell everyone that the really cool explanation they gave so that people like you would like it was a lie?

Chiuba E. Obele said:

@smurfalarm @Charlotte Pats Fan @ANGR89 @BradyFTW! It's a difficult time being a Pats fan, especially outside of NE. You are now officially part of America's most isolated, and hated fanbase:

There's got to be an expression for something like this.....refusal to back down from Patriot pride despite being surrounded by haters...hmm....how bout' 'Brady Strong'?

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This has moved heavily in Bradys favor in the last 2 days.

The part about weight loss is what mcnally and JJ said to the patriots, this explanation didnt came from a lawyer´s imagination.