How Big A Factor Are Brady's Emails and Phone Records?

mgteich · May 10, 2015

1) It would seem the union should have formally objected to the requests.

2) The bar for "guilt" is very low, just that Brady is more likely than not to know that the balls were deflated.

3) Brady's withholding of the emails and phone records may be viewed as "not fully cooperating" with the investigation. The claim is that cooperation is looked up when determining sentence in such cases.

Bobsyouruncle · May 10, 2015

To the public, probably a big deal. To the investigation though? I'm no lawyer so I'm guessing but I doubt the NFL can do much. You could just as easily make the case he didn't cooperate if he didn't let them search his house or read his diary. At some point I think the NFLPA will take that point up (if they haven't already), and absent some explicit agreement I think it would be tough to justify punishing him over it.

Maybe legal experts know more on this? I've heard Favre got punished over this but not sure if it's true, plus Favre's case involved a message, this is just using messages to fish.

FrodoBagginz · May 10, 2015

They want his emails and phone records then they go and get a search warrant like our U.S. Constitution says. The NFL is not a dictatorship that is above the Law. Brady has a Constitutional Right to protect himself and his privacy no matter if he is guilty or innocent.

If Goodell doesn't like our Constitution then he can move to China. He won't be missed.

BelichickFan · May 10, 2015

Yeah, I'd say they none of Goodell's f*cking business and a fishing expedition.

mgteich · May 10, 2015

FrodoBagginz said:
They want his emails and phone records then they go and get a search warrant like our U.S. Constitution says. The NFL is not a dictatorship that is above the Law. Brady has a Constitutional Right to protect himself and his privacy no matter if he is guilty or innocent.

If Goodell doesn't like our Constitution then he can move to China. He won't be missed.

This proceeding is not a court of law. Brady must abide by the rules of the NFL and the union. Brady is a party to many contracts and agreements which limit his rights. We all do that often.

Brady chose not to provide emails and phone records. Such lack would make no difference in a criminal proceeding in a US Court where the subject was whether Brady was guilty of charges.

mgteich · May 10, 2015

Bobsyouruncle said:
To the public, probably a big deal. To the investigation though? I'm no lawyer so I'm guessing but I doubt the NFL can do much. You could just as easily make the case he didn't cooperate if he didn't let them search his house or read his diary. At some point I think the NFLPA will take that point up (if they haven't already), and absent some explicit agreement I think it would be tough to justify punishing him over it.

Maybe legal experts know more on this? I've heard Favre got punished over this but not sure if it's true, plus Favre's case involved a message, this is just using messages to fish.

It seems that Brady was ASKED for cooperation, and he was under no legal obligation to provide such cooperation.

hambone1818 · May 10, 2015

The equipment guys' phones were analyzed because they were Patriots-issued devices, so the team asked for them and handed them over to Wells. Brady's phone is a private device. Additionally, the equipment guys are not part of a union whereas Brady has NFLPA union protection. He is under no obligation to turn over his personal property to the investigation.

As many, many people have pointed out with all the leaks from NFL officials is it any surprise that a famous, public figure like Brady doesn't want the league pouring through his personal devices? I don't care if they gave him their word that only relevant communications would be detailed in the report, that's his personal phone with, likely, many text conversations and photos that he doesn't want in the public eye. Screw them, that's not being 'non-cooperative', that's using common sense and avoiding some private information from seeing the light of day.

Jim Colclough fan · May 10, 2015

Recently read the ball-boys phones were company phones. So, they were obligated to turn over their phones with all texts. The investigators wanted Brady's personal cell phone - which (like any one of us) he refused

mgteich · May 10, 2015

hambone1818 said:
The equipment guys' phones were analyzed because they were Patriots-issued devices, so the team asked for them and handed them over to Wells. Brady's phone is a private device. Additionally, the equipment guys are not part of a union whereas Brady has NFLPA union protection. He is under no obligation to turn over his personal property to the investigation.

As many, many people have pointed out with all the leaks from NFL officials is it any surprise that a famous, public figure like Brady doesn't want the league pouring through his personal devices? I don't care if they gave him their word that only relevant communications would be detailed in the report, that's his personal phone with, likely, many text conversations and photos that he doesn't want in the public eye. Screw them, that's not being 'non-cooperative', that's using common sense and avoiding some private information from seeing the light of day.

Was Brady requested to turn over his phone or to turn over all records that could be relevant? Obviously, this was a fishing expedition, and obviously the league cannot force cooperation with their investigations. However, in many, many court cases (criminal and civil), someone is required to turn over certain email and phone records, without turning over the device.

I am only dealing with issue of whether Brady "cooperated" with NFL. He was required by law to do so. On the other hand, the NFL could punish based on the degree of cooperation.

The records might have shown that Brady never discussed deflation of balls, and that Brady did not discuss the investigation with McNally 5 times, with no contact for six months. Or not.

To summarize, the bar is not innocent until proven to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. It just isn't.

BelichickFan · May 10, 2015

mgteich said:
This proceeding is not a court of law. Brady must abide by the rules of the NFL and the union. Brady is a party to many contracts and agreements which limit his rights. We all do that often.

Brady chose not to provide emails and phone records. Such lack would make no difference in a criminal proceeding in a US Court where the subject was whether Brady was guilty of charges.

Brady has rights as a player in the union; I don't know exactly what they are but I would assume he has the right to not have to turn over his private conversations just because the Commissioner asks. It would be a terrible precedent for all players.

Perhaps the Commissioner can suggest a phone exchange, Roger gets to see Brady's and Brady gets to see Roger's. I'm guessing that would be less pleasing to Roger to be on the other side.

Ivan · May 10, 2015

I don't know why anyone would turn their phone over to the NFL league office or the Wells "investigators." They demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that they cannot be trusted with any information.

farn · May 10, 2015

It becomes a crazy Union issue if "not giving the league your personal cell/emails" becomes punishable !

hambone1818 · May 10, 2015

mgteich said:
Was Brady requested to turn over his phone or to turn over all records that could be relevant?

Good question, and I hadn't read into this distinction until just now. Here's the relevant section of the report.

Similarly, although Tom Brady appeared for a requested interview and answered questions voluntarily, he declined to make available any documents or electronic information (including text messages and emails) that we requested, even though those requests were limited to the subject matter of our investigation (such as messages concerning the preparation of game balls, air pressure of balls, inflation of balls or deflation of balls) and we offered to allow Brady‟s counsel to screen and control the production so that it would be limited strictly to responsive materials and would not involve our taking possession of Brady‟s telephone or other electronic devices.

That does shed a slightly different light on the matter, but I wonder what the CBA says about this. I'm sure Brady, Yee and a players union rep discussed this at some point.

We'll see where this 'non-cooperative' narrative goes, if it's cited in any punishment and what Brady/Yee's response is to it. My guess is union members are under no obligation to surrender this type of information in an investigation, though it could just be my biased opinion.

BlueThunder · May 10, 2015

In the past I thought failure to comply with an NFL request was a fine, not a suspension. No fishing allowed sign went up.

The sentence coming down will be an indication how much Goodell wants to get involved in an appeal battle. A one or two game suspension would be the max I could see with the flimsey non evidence in the report, especially not hearing Brady's side of what went down.

TBR · May 10, 2015

Well, if they are so sure that Brady had communicated to J.J or J.M about deflating the balls below a legal amount or to alter them after ref inspection, how come they didn't find any of Brady's texts/calls/emails on J.M or J.J's phone? Just texts between J.J and J.M...

Haley · May 10, 2015

To be fair, Wells requested a text printout of the specific messages he wanted to see. Not the entire phone. It was reported to be still quite a lot of information and Yee stated that this request was refused because it could only be used to imply guilt and not innocence making it not in his client's best interest.

In other words, asking for this partial information would never be used to clear Brady. They would use it solely to twist his words and take things out of context to 'prove his guilt'. And if nothing were found, everyone would be wondering what was in all those texts he DIDN'T provide.

You'd have to be an idiot to sign up for that.

ChesBay · May 10, 2015

TBR said:
Well, if they are so sure that Brady had communicated to J.J or J.M about deflating the balls below a legal amount or to alter them after ref inspection, how come they didn't find any of Brady's texts/calls/emails on J.M or J.J's phone? Just texts between J.J and J.M...

Exactly....and interesting similar to both the Lois Lerner and Hillary Clinton cases, whereby they refused to turn over their cell phone/email info when faced with much more legally compelling reasons to do so (at least some would contend). But this whole angle of analysis fails to focus on the real problem. If the NFL must compel its players to give up their private information in order to prove guilt, wouldn't it just be a better idea to change its internal processes so it doesn't have to resort to such practices, thereby diminishing the value of the very product (star football players) that it is marketing? To that end (and it's already been stated by many on this forum) , merely changing the inspection process and associated custody rules for the handling of its footballs would have eliminated the quagmire the NFL has managed to create.

Deus Irae · May 10, 2015

farn said:
It becomes a crazy Union issue if "not giving the league your personal cell/emails" becomes punishable !

Already happened with Favre, to the tune of $50k.

SHOWTIME15 · May 10, 2015

FrodoBagginz said:
They want his emails and phone records then they go and get a search warrant like our U.S. Constitution says. The NFL is not a dictatorship that is above the Law. Brady has a Constitutional Right to protect himself and his privacy no matter if he is guilty or innocent.

If Goodell doesn't like our Constitution then he can move to China. He won't be missed.

The NFL has no power to even get a search warrant like the police do.

Deus Irae · May 10, 2015

hambone1818 said:
Good question, and I hadn't read into this distinction until just now. Here's the relevant section of the report.

Similarly, although Tom Brady appeared for a requested interview and answered questions voluntarily, he declined to make available any documents or electronic information (including text messages and emails) that we requested, even though those requests were limited to the subject matter of our investigation (such as messages concerning the preparation of game balls, air pressure of balls, inflation of balls or deflation of balls) and we offered to allow Brady‟s counsel to screen and control the production so that it would be limited strictly to responsive materials and would not involve our taking possession of Brady‟s telephone or other electronic devices.

That does shed a slightly different light on the matter, but I wonder what the CBA says about this. I'm sure Brady, Yee and a players union rep discussed this at some point.

We'll see where this 'non-cooperative' narrative goes, if it's cited in any punishment and what Brady/Yee's response is to it. My guess is union members are under no obligation to surrender this type of information in an investigation, though it could just be my biased opinion.

Brady's agent disagrees with the Wells' characterization of this:

“Second, with the text messages, the scope that they asked for is actually very, very wide. I probably should have made the letter public that we received from the NFL’s lawyers. But in any event, if we would have provided the phone or the text messages — you have to understand Tom is also a member of the union, the Commissioner’s office actually does not have any subpoena power. If a prominent player were to provide all of their private communications absent a subpoena, that sets a dangerous precedent for all players facing disciplinary measures.

“Finally, any information we would have provided, and the Wells investigative team did ask us to go through Tom’s phone on our own and provide them with information if we chose to go that route. But as you might surmise if we would have chosen to go that route, any information we would have given them, they probably would have had skepticism about anyway.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...ns-bradys-refusal-to-provide-texts-and-email/

The issue thus becomes Florio's follow up statement:

Regardless of whether the NFL presumed guilt or not, cooperation is mandatory. Failure to cooperate constitutes conduct detrimental to the league.

which is another of the CBA issues.

How Big A Factor Are Brady's Emails and Phone Records?

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