Talk with Judge - Labor lawyer who deals with Unions every day

patsfan13 · May 9, 2015

Bobs My Uncle said:
I am not sure what you mean by the underlined sentence. If issued a subpoena, Godell wouldn't have a choice.

Or, are you saying for fear of this happening, Godell isn't going to issue a penalty in all of this?

Yee has been laying down markers Goodell doesn't want a lawsuit where he faces exposure that is why there is so much weasel language on the Well report and why the punishment has been turned over to Vincent, and why the leaks and delay for punishment. Negotiations are going on, they want to know how Brady will proceed.

Brady is one of the few players that has to ability to go nuclear with the nfl and take them to court after an arbiter rules.

Dr Pain · May 9, 2015

And this which is probably outdated based on the new agreement but interesting https://books.google.com/books?id=h...Q#v=onepage&q=nfl arbitration process&f=false

Danger Zone · May 9, 2015

Dr Pain said:
Any math folks here? What is the percentage of a probable he knew of another a probable of something actually taking place? If it is 50.1% of a 50.1% then I believe mathematically the NFL is arguing that there is a 25.1% chance that Brady knew. 50.1% * 50.1% = 25.1%

Walt Anderson stated that to the best of his recollection, he used the Logo gauge (which was reading +.4 psi) to test the footballs pregame

Shouldn't "best of his recollection" be at least considered a "more probable than not" scenario?

Better than 50% chance that Walt Anderson's memory is correct and he used the faulty Logo gauge.

Instead, because he says it is "certainly possible" that he used the other gauge, Wells decides this is what actually happened.

How about a "certainly possible" Brady wasn't generally aware or a certainly possible no fooballs were in fact deflated by human intervention?

Dr Pain · May 9, 2015

Danger Zone said:
Walt Anderson stated that to the best of his recollection, he used the Logo gauge (which was reading +.4 psi) to test the footballs pregame

Shouldn't "best of his recollection" be at least considered a "more probable than not" scenario?

Better than 50% chance that Walt Anderson's memory is correct and he used the faulty Logo gauge to

Instead, because he says it is "certainly possible" that he used the other gauge, Wells decides this is what actually happened.

How about a "certainly possible" Brady wasn't generally aware or a certainly possible no fooballs were in fact deflated by human intervention?

So 50.1% of a 50.1% of a 50.1% so about a 12.6% Brady was aware of an activity taking place against the rules.

ViperGTS · May 9, 2015

Dr Pain said:
If they can get away with doing this to Tom Brady who is worth 100s of millions, what chance does a 3 string player have against the NFL machine? Brady probably does not need the union's help as he can afford the best but the union needs Brady to win this or it is very bad for the rank and file members. Can you imagine every drug investigation the NFL wants to do now, they could demand every players phone, emails, chats, computers whenever there is any baseless accusation of any drug use. This would be huge and since it is reported that a large number of NFL players smoke pot, they would all be screwed.

Good point. I hadn't looked at from this perspective. Makes some sense IMO.

JMC00 · May 9, 2015

mosi said:
This will not go to trial.

Yes it will

ViperGTS · May 9, 2015

borg said:
Someone in the know, explain who these NFL arbiters are, who provides them, the role that the NFLPA has in the selection....anything?
Is the arbitration process governed by league standards or legal standards

Per NFL.com

The arbiter in the possible case V Tom Brady will most likely be Mike Wells.
Mike is the son of Ted Wells, who is a highly respected lawyer and NFL consultant in his own right. He will be assisted by Maria Kensil the daughter of Mike Kensil, NFL league office coffeemaker.

TheBostonStraggler · May 9, 2015

#12 said:
Generally aware is the most broad, least level amount of knowledge you can possibly have to be convicted of whatever your accuser is stating you know. In other words, Wells is accusing Brady of having at the very least a very general awareness that some kind of shenanigans were going on.

Additionally, without having any proof or understanding of what those "inappropriate activities" are that the ballboys are being accused of, or if they ever even occurred; the whole accusation collapses upon itself. Making the fact that Wells and the NFL have tarnished an individual's character on such an unlikely "maybe" unbelievable.

Also please note that "more probably than not" used in Wells Report is not the same legal standard used in court/legal proceedings. Instead, Wells has used it as legal jargon to make his "findings" (if you want to call them that) more convincing. Examining the report, Wells set the bar of "more probably than not" in his report to be one that is very, very low.

Been reading up o the legal definition of proof and how it applies here. Then it dawns on me none of it applies here. No legal burden of proof has been met as an impartial third party has not heard the evidence and made a judgment. The only "burden" that has been met is an "investigator" that is factually not a third party has gathered evidence and interpreted it to mean Brady is guilty of an accusation by his own "more probably than not" standard.
If the NFL gives the evidenciary findings of Wells to an actual neutral third party, I'd be willing to say report the evidence, put out his own report, and the two point of views can be compared, that would also, IMHO, be good enough to be considered a burden of proof being met.

PatsWickedPissah · May 9, 2015

Danger Zone said:
Walt Anderson stated that to the best of his recollection, he used the Logo gauge (which was reading +.4 psi) to test the footballs pregame

Shouldn't "best of his recollection" be at least considered a "more probable than not" scenario?

Better than 50% chance that Walt Anderson's memory is correct and he used the faulty Logo gauge.

Instead, because he says it is "certainly possible" that he used the other gauge, Wells decides this is what actually happened.

How about a "certainly possible" Brady wasn't generally aware or a certainly possible no fooballs were in fact deflated by human intervention?

Wells treats every non-Pats statement as gospel.
All Pats interviewed told a consistent story. Wells concludes they're lying, covering up "something"

Anderson's testimony all based on recollection is accepted as accurate EXCEPT his recollection of the pre-game gauge used. Wells concludes flawed memory because to accept that one statement does not fit the desired narrative.

Dr Pain · May 9, 2015

I just updated this with what I have since learned and it is not happy news. * Crappy morning update. Did not know that Goodell is the default arbitrator and was based on an assumption of a non biased arbitrator. (What a crappy union agreement) Goodel has Vincent giving the penalty because Goodall can't arbitrate a penalty he put in place. Goodell could claim he is unbiased, appoint himself, suspend Brady and Brady would miss games as this is fought.

Fencer · May 9, 2015

fair catch fryar said:
Being a lawyer and experiencing how his "screw-ups" have gone recently, why would Goodell allow it to go this route?

That's an urban myth. Actually, Goodell is not a lawyer.

patsfanincleveland · May 9, 2015

JMC00 said:
Goodell doesnt even want to put his name to the punishment because he knows what is going to happen. That's why it was announced Troy Vincent will decide on the punishment. Which no-one is believing. Goodell is just using Vincent as a puppet so when the legal process takes place he can just pass the buck and say he had no involvment in the process it was Ted Wells and Troy Vincent.

Makes one wonder if this whole Barney Fife operation was really Grigson/Kensil and Goodell was as blind sided as everyone.

Fencer · May 9, 2015

ChesBay said:
Meaning that Brady could be found to have directed the deflation of over-inflated balls down to the legally acceptable 12.5 psi level, after the referee had inspected those balls, and therefore he'd be culpable for a $25K fine per NFL rule book. I'm ok with that.

Right. If McNally deflated the balls at an unapproved time, even if it was just to correct somebody else's error, then there was a violation.

If physics caused the balls subsequently to fall below the officially targeted pressure range -- well, that would illustrate that the rule McNally would have been violating actually has a little merit.

PatsWickedPissah · May 9, 2015

Dr Pain said:
I just updated this with what I have since learned and it is not happy news. * Crappy morning update. Did not know that Goodell is the default arbitrator and was based on an assumption of a non biased arbitrator. (What a crappy union agreement) Goodel has Vincent giving the penalty because Goodall can't arbitrate a penalty he put in place. Goodell could claim he is unbiased, appoint himself, suspend Brady and Brady would miss games as this is fought.

Next step discovery and lawsuit by Brady.
Gooody would be placing himself unnecessarily at great legal risk here appointing himself as arbitrator.
Brady's lawsuit would have a discovery field day with everything of Rogers's being fair game!

Dr Pain · May 9, 2015

PatsWickedPissah said:
Next step discovery and lawsuit by Brady.
Gooody would be placing himself unnecessarily at great legal risk here appointing himself as arbitrator.
Brady's lawsuit would have a discovery field day with everything of Rogers's being fair game!

Goodell could later agree to an independent arbitrator but that would be killing the clock and see Brady miss games. This is what happened with Peterson and Rice.

Fencer · May 9, 2015

Dr Pain said:
The bell can't be unrung. This is probably the best Brady will ever get. Even if he sues, wins and in discovery finds evidence of a massive conspiracy, 90% of Americans will ignore it. The judge I spoke with thought Brady probably did it as in their personal experience people in power do things to get what they want though they felt the arbitration should be a piece of cake for Brady assuming Brady was not required to turn over his phone. I brought up the scientific evidence and it just confused the judge. I am certain that if it were presented in a compelling way, such as if they saw the headsmart video, they would understand but that takes a level of commitment to finding the truth that most people just don't care about. This is the problem with the court of public opinion and ultimately why politics is so incredibly crappy as there is little downside to saying something wildly inaccurate if it is what the majority of the public wants to hear.

What Brady can do is insert doubt into many people's minds as to his guilt. They won't think he's 100% clean, but he still has a shot at returning to the "everybody does it" -- where one example of "everybody" is Aaron Rodgers, and another is Jerry Rice, and so on -- level of looking for an edge.

Fencer · May 9, 2015

patsfan13 said:
Yee has been laying down markers Goodell doesn't want a lawsuit where he faces exposure that is why there is so much weasel language on the Well report and why the punishment has been turned over to Vincent, and why the leaks and delay for punishment. Negotiations are going on, they want to know how Brady will proceed.

Brady is one of the few players that has to ability to go nuclear with the nfl and take them to ocurt after an arbiter rules.

Which is why Brady would have been crazy to make major public statements between the release of the Wells report and the league's announcement of discipline.

tom444 · May 9, 2015

I highly doubt a law suite is in Brady's plan. What Brady has to do is get back on the field as fast as possible. Anything that helps facilitate his return is where the emphasis should and will be placed, IMO. On the field is where he will gain redemption, not in a court of law.

fair catch fryar · May 9, 2015

Fencer said:
That's an urban myth. Actually, Goodell is not a lawyer.

I didn't know that. I always assumed he was.

jefmblrd · May 9, 2015

This whole issue has gotten ridiculously out of hand--another major gaffe by Goodell. There are just too many holes and questions in the entire proceedings. How can the NFL maintain that this is an independent investigation when they paid for it? How can they prove anything about the psi in the footballs when the baseline psi was never documented before the game? And the list goes on. I hope that Brady digs in and fights them to expose them for the frauds they are.

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