Your thoughts on Patriots cornerback strategy in the draft...

Bonzo said:

They don't need to be satisfied with their current roster of corners to not like any of the available alternatives.

The strategy seems pretty clear: compensate for any deficiencies in the secondary with a hellacious front 7.

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I'm all about that theory too; the other possibility is that there are known targets further down the off-season pike, but I dunno.

The question I've seen raised is how you achieve the constant pressure while maintaining gap discipline. If we're truly selling out for pressure does that mean telling brown "pick a gap, forget the other, get in there" on play A, bringing down a LB or two on play B, etc? A constant rotation of risk...? Doesnt sound very Bill... so are we really looking at that level of sea-change on D?

So is that more likely, or is it more likely that Bill's got a secondary plan unknown to mere mortals like us, particularly with the departure of Dennard? Is Butler this super secret weapon only Bill knows the value of?

Is it FREAKING SEPTEMBER YET????

PatsFanInVa said:

I'm all about that theory too; the other possibility is that there are known targets further down the off-season pike, but I dunno.

The question I've seen raised is how you achieve the constant pressure while maintaining gap discipline. If we're truly selling out for pressure does that mean telling brown "pick a gap, forget the other, get in there" on play A, bringing down a LB or two on play B, etc? A constant rotation of risk...? Doesnt sound very Bill... so are we really looking at that level of sea-change on D?

So is that more likely, or is it more likely that Bill's got a secondary plan unknown to mere mortals like us, particularly with the departure of Dennard? Is Butler this super secret weapon only Bill knows the value of?

Is it FREAKING SEPTEMBER YET????

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No terribly secret. He was on full display during the fourth quarter of the SB.

Lot of faith based on 15 minutes of football.

robertweathers said:

Not really. Signing a UFA does not make your argument of claiming BB undervalued the secondary in the SB years of 03-04.

You are kinda moving the goal posts a little.

You initially said that BB undervalued the secondary. If you are changing your position that fine but the history doesn't support your claim.

The circumstances are that he paid Law handsomely, gave Ty Poole a $1.8m signing bonus in 2003 and carried a $1.9m cap hit in 04 which was a big deal back then. Paid Harrison a bonus in 04 for good work. Spent a 2nd on Geno and a 4th on Asante in 03. BB also burned another 3rd on Scott and a 4th on Reid in 04.

That's a lot of salary and a lot of picks.

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I was being sarcastic when I said he under-valued the position in a year when they won the Super Bowl WITHOUT their ONE player for whom they invested the vast majority of their secondary money.

He valued it - just not in the way many prefer that he do by spending lots of money and high draft picks

My point is - and it's a proven point - that one can win the Super Bowl WITHOUT a high priced secondary

Ty Poole was a relatively low salary player as you point out (1/6th of Ty Law's cap hi)

Rodney Harrison was a relatively low salary player as you point out (1/5th of Ty Law's cap hit)

And other contributions to the secondary came not from a 2nd round draft pick as seemingly everyone wishes Belichick had done this year - but from an UDFA and a 4th round pick from the year before

Heck - The highest cap hit in the secondary wasn't Harrison or Poole or Gay (1/50th of Ty Law's cap hit) it was Troy Brown - the WR turned DB - who was at $3.2 million

So just to recap - while $10 million in cap money rehabed on the sideline in 2004, a bunch of guys who's combined salaries didn't amount to half that much wound up contributing to the team's 3rd Super Bowl ring

Meanwhile the high pick from that year wound up being a bust while the UDFA wound up being a difference maker

This is NOT a point I'm arguing. It's a fact.

The way Belichick "values" his players often has little to do with how much they make or where they were drafted. That's what makes him such a great coach.

JoeSixPat said:

I was being sarcastic when I said he under-valued the position in a year when they won the Super Bowl WITHOUT their ONE player for whom they invested the vast majority of their secondary money.

He valued it - just not in the way many prefer that he do by spending lots of money and high draft picks

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Got it.

JoeSixPat said:

My point is - and it's a proven point - that one can win the Super Bowl WITHOUT a high priced secondary

Ty Poole was a relatively low salary player as you point out (1/6th of Ty Law's cap hi)

Rodney Harrison was a relatively low salary player as you point out (1/5th of Ty Law's cap hit)

And other contributions to the secondary came not from a 2nd round draft pick as seemingly everyone wishes Belichick had done this year - but from an UDFA and a 4th round pick from the year before

Heck - The highest cap hit in the secondary wasn't Harrison or Poole or Gay (1/50th of Ty Law's cap hit) it was Troy Brown - the WR turned DB - who was at $3.2 million

So just to recap - while $10 million in cap money rehabed on the sideline in 2004, a bunch of guys who's salary didn't amount to half that much wound up contributing to the team's 3rd Super Bowl ring

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Agree on all points. The 04 team was very fortunate to have a dominant front 7. Hopefully they have the same type of production this year.

I sort of get the feeling that this is like the Red Sox offseason where everyone (except the Red Sox management apparently) knew that their pitching was going to stink this year, and, lo & behold, it stinks.

Now everyone, except the Patriots it would seem, is assuming that the Patriot secondary is going to stink this season and it probably will. There is no solution that makes sense. Ryan is not going to magically go from toast to shutdown. It is unlikely that a quality FA CB will be available. Trades seem unlikely. We are stuck unless some manna falls from heaven like Talib or the rook can play.

PatsFanInVa said:

Lot of faith based on 15 minutes of football.

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A quarter of football, plus a full season of practices, workouts, training camp, plenty of opportunity for the greatest football coach of all time to see what he has.

n6249c said:

A quarter of football, plus a full season of practices, workouts, training camp, plenty of opportunity for the greatest football coach of all time to see what he has.

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It is easy enough to see what you have, but it is another matter to fix the problem. You cannot scheme around a bad secondary. You can scheme around deficiencies in other areas, but not bad CBs. You cannot coach up a bad CB into a good one. You cannot find a good CB as a Free Agent at thus time of year. You cannot draft one for this season; that ship has sailed. And the prospects for trading for a quality CB seem dim.

I cannot see how BB could paint himself into such a corner. He now has a single CB who can cover and no depth. This is so unlike him.

FredFromDartmouth said:

It is easy enough to see what you have, but it is another matter to fix the problem. You cannot scheme around a bad secondary. You can scheme around deficiencies in other areas, but not bad CBs. You cannot coach up a bad CB into a good one. You cannot find a good CB as a Free Agent at thus time of year. You cannot draft one for this season; that ship has sailed. And the prospects for trading for a quality CB seem dim.

I cannot see how BB could paint himself into such a corner. He now has a single CB who can cover and no depth. This is so unlike him.

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If everyone besides BB knows something it's safe to assume the opposite is true.

See good ole Freddie is back with the pessimistic posts. All is right in the world. Honestly we should all wait and watch, remember the reaction to mankins last year and where we ended up? Remember when Milloy left and where we ended up? Folks this is too easy bb knows how to troll yall and it's absolutely hilarious to watch these "experts" go bazerk

Archeryaddict12 said:

...Honestly we should all wait and watch, remember the reaction to mankins last year and where we ended up? Remember when Milloy left and where we ended up? Folks this is too easy bb knows how to troll yall and it's absolutely hilarious to watch these "experts" go bazerk

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Oh I generally agree, and I should preface all comments with "by the way, I am always wrong."

This is absolutely the case. In fact, at this point I am tempted to go totally negative rather than "explain" in my head what's going on (i.e., guess), because we'd win another SB for sure. In fact, last year, after many seasons of "In Bill We Trust" -- RIGHT before the Cincinatti game -- I was like "Well let's not walk right off the ledge... yet... BUT... um they're right, right now we're not very good we ain't winnin' nothin' this year unless something changes and that O-line couldn't get protection if it stopped at every 7-11 between Foxborough and New York." It was like magic, I tell ya.

That said... yes, BB has had time to evaluate Butler; however, the evidence cited here was not the full season of evaluation by him, the DC, his position coach, etc., but a "whole quarter" of football in the super bowl.

Clearly, absent some further personnel plans between now and opening day, we think that Butler is one of the guys who gets it done at CB. Like the guy who started the thread by this title... I love our front seven.

It's the back four that makes me nervous. That said, In Bill I Trust. He's got himself QB-level football intelligence in Jordan Richards, who is also, by the way, not a smurf. That might be part of what he's thinking of as the answer, but he's not in the Pats system yet. Of course BB & Co. are not shy to value what they think over every idiot draftnik in draftdom... they might think they have two potential pro-bowlers in Richards and Butler, that it's theirs for the taking.

Or, Dennard was overheard saying after the draft, "Hey F*** Bill Belichick, I'm safe now!"

All I can say is what it looks like from the cheap seats, that is, the POV of an addicted fan who knows he knows far less than the brain trust in Foxboro.

One of the buzz-words in this year's draft (see the "draft vocabulary" thread) was "...can take the top off a defense." Welp, from the cheap-seats, this D looks like a convertible with the top down. I mean it's a nice convertible, a really nice one.

But the lack of concern at secondary was already evident with the non-panicky response to the Revis/Browner departure. Okie-dokie. Fine and dandy.

Dumping Dennard makes me go "dang." Not because I think Fonzie is a world-beater, more because we're throwing out another guy who I thought was a bit more than "JAG" with (to me) unknowns.

What people have seen on the practice field, in college game film, and in spot action is fairly unknown to me because I don't do this for a living. But for a guy who doesn't do this for a living... it's scarrrrryyyyyy.

All that said I have a great deal of trust in those who do do this for a living, for the Pats. Were I (for example) a JEST fan, every such move would have me running for the hills. But the Pats' formula has always been building a team not collecting talent... we'll start seeing on opening day, against a pretty decent QB with some weapons. And the story will play out as the season goes on.

Still wondering what if any moves are planned between now and then.

PatsFanInVa said:

Oh I generally agree, and I should preface all comments with "by the way, I am always wrong."

This is absolutely the case. In fact, at this point I am tempted to go totally negative rather than "explain" in my head what's going on (i.e., guess), because we'd win another SB for sure. In fact, last year, after many seasons of "In Bill We Trust" -- RIGHT before the Cincinatti game -- I was like "Well let's not walk right off the ledge... yet... BUT... um they're right, right now we're not very good we ain't winnin' nothin' this year unless something changes and that O-line couldn't get protection if it stopped at every 7-11 between Foxborough and New York." It was like magic, I tell ya.

That said... yes, BB has had time to evaluate Butler; however, the evidence cited here was not the full season of evaluation by him, the DC, his position coach, etc., but a "whole quarter" of football in the super bowl.

Clearly, absent some further personnel plans between now and opening day, we think that Butler is one of the guys who gets it done at CB. Like the guy who started the thread by this title... I love our front seven.

It's the back four that makes me nervous. That said, In Bill I Trust. He's got himself QB-level football intelligence in Jordan Richards, who is also, by the way, not a smurf. That might be part of what he's thinking of as the answer, but he's not in the Pats system yet. Of course BB & Co. are not shy to value what they think over every idiot draftnik in draftdom... they might think they have two potential pro-bowlers in Richards and Butler, that it's theirs for the taking.

Or, Dennard was overheard saying after the draft, "Hey F*** Bill Belichick, I'm safe now!"

All I can say is what it looks like from the cheap seats, that is, the POV of an addicted fan who knows he knows far less than the brain trust in Foxboro.

One of the buzz-words in this year's draft (see the "draft vocabulary" thread) was "...can take the top off a defense." Welp, from the cheap-seats, this D looks like a convertible with the top down. I mean it's a nice convertible, a really nice one.

But the lack of concern at secondary was already evident with the non-panicky response to the Revis/Browner departure. Okie-dokie. Fine and dandy.

Dumping Dennard makes me go "dang." Not because I think Fonzie is a world-beater, more because we're throwing out another guy who I thought was a bit more than "JAG" with (to me) unknowns.

What people have seen on the practice field, in college game film, and in spot action is fairly unknown to me because I don't do this for a living. But for a guy who doesn't do this for a living... it's scarrrrryyyyyy.

All that said I have a great deal of trust in those who do do this for a living, for the Pats. Were I (for example) a JEST fan, every such move would have me running for the hills. But the Pats' formula has always been building a team not collecting talent... we'll start seeing on opening day, against a pretty decent QB with some weapons. And the story will play out as the season goes on.

Still wondering what if any moves are planned between now and then.

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The point of the 'whole quarter of the SB' was that Bill had had TC, preseason, and a full season to evaluate Butler's play, and THEN in the fourth quarter of the SB with the margin of victory razor thin, he chose to put Butler in. And he performed. Not just the last play. So no, the evidence was not 'one quarter of the SB'.

The Pats appear to be grabbing one out of the Boston Red Sox playbook (in regards to starting pitching). More specifically, they are punting; hoping it just all comes together with what they have. Why do I get the feeling that teams that can throw will always be a threat against them? (Lots of teams can throw.)

Yeah, they punted. Perhaps, they believe there is better trade value(s) out there and/or something might come up? We'll see. In the meantime, take a look at how the Sox are doing with the "Who's the ace" strategy. Note: it only works in the off-season...when no games are being played.

The only thing that makes sense is that the Patriots put a new emphasis on character in this draft and that knocked out some potential picks such as PJ Williams in the second. It probably knocked out a lot of WRs also.

I have to assume that next season we will have "Butler Island" with the safety edging to the other side of field to help Ryan or whomever is over there. It might work. It will be very interesting to see how it plays out this summer and fall.

FredFromDartmouth said:

The only thing that makes sense is that the Patriots put a new emphasis on character in this draft and that knocked out some potential picks such as PJ Williams in the second. It probably knocked out a lot of WRs also.

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OK

What corner do you think that the patriots should have drafted at 32 instead of Moore?

What corner do you think that the patriots should have drafted at 64 instead of Richards?

Archeryaddict12 said:

See good ole Freddie is back with the pessimistic posts. All is right in the world. Honestly we should all wait and watch, remember the reaction to mankins last year and where we ended up? Remember when Milloy left and where we ended up? Folks this is too easy bb knows how to troll yall and it's absolutely hilarious to watch these "experts" go bazerk

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So....still feeling so rosy about our peachy-keen cornerback situation?

BB must have some sort of strategy about how to fix this problem, but darned if I can figure out what it is. A trade?

It is hard to believe that BB would have painted himself into such a corner unless someone like Kraft told him to only draft the super-boy-scouts which sort of excludes most WRs and CBs. But would BB really let Kraft start picking the groceries again?

FredFromDartmouth said:

So....still feeling so rosy about our peachy-keen cornerback situation?

BB must have some sort of strategy about how to fix this problem, but darned if I can figure out what it is. A trade?

It is hard to believe that BB would have painted himself into such a corner unless someone like Kraft told him to only draft the super-boy-scouts which sort of excludes most WRs and CBs. But would BB really let Kraft start picking the groceries again?

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You stating that Belichick has painted himself into the corner is like me watching International Grandmaster's play and saying "wonder why he moved his horsie there?"

While sure, thats an appeal to authority, however the point I'm trying to make is that, obviously Belichick has a plan. We are simply not privy to it.

Game 1 is not tomorrow and training camp is still three months away.

Danger Zone said:

You stating that Belichick has painted himself into the corner is like me watching International Grandmaster's play and saying "wonder why he moved his horsie there?"

While sure, thats an appeal to authority, however the point I'm trying to make is that, obviously Belichick has a plan. We are simply not privy to it.

Game 1 is not tomorrow and training camp is still three months away.

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Yeah you are probably right. I hope so. It is sure to be interesting this season.

So I guess that the Patriots are not going to be able to trade Garoppolo plus their 2016 first to Cleveland for Haden ...

FredFromDartmouth said:

Yeah you are probably right. I hope so. It is sure to be interesting this season.

So I guess that the Patriots are not going to be able to trade Garoppolo plus their 2016 first to Cleveland for Haden ...

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Dont have any room in my Patriot life for snarky little ****s like you. Goodbye