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Let me tell you about Jordan Richards


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A poster here once paraphrased a conversation he got to have with a real GM at a dinner party. Of the things the GM told him, what stuck in my head was the GM saying that were are only a couple of experts outside of the NFL that are capable of NFL level talent evaluation.

The only experts capable of that I've heard are all ex-NFL personnel guys who have jobs that require them to study game film, attend Senior Bowl practices, attend NFL training camps, etc.

Phil Savage. Pat Kirwin. Bill Polian.

I can't think of any talking head on ESPN or NFL Network that is capable. Certainly nobody on Boston radio or TV. Ex-players are terrible at it. Ex-coaches could do it, but most don't do the film study required.

I don't think Savage or Kirwin or Polian would predict with certainty what round a player will be picked, except the 16 or so players Polian says have first round grades in an average draft. But, all three are discerning enough to understand differences between players at a given position and what type of player at a position might be a better fit for what Team A or Team B is looking for in terms of attributes, system, etc.

That's the level of sophistication that is missing from the TV pundits and draft gurus.
 
Reading that kind of information didn't convince Belichick or any of the GM's to draft Roberts until the bottom of the 7th round.

Yep. Main reason was that he is not NFL ready. The question is will be be ready by August? September, December or never.
 
Guys often have a higher grade than where they are picked but teams only have so much draft capital. BB commonly uses the 5th and 6th rounders specifically for special teamers (who are more likely to make a contribution) and 7th rounders for projects who need to show enough in training camp that they are worth the time for the team to invest a roster spot and development time.

Sometimes there is not a ton of difference between late round picks (4th onwards) rounders and UDFAs because all of them will have some kind of knock on them. Even early round picks have facets of their game that need to be developed because the NFL is just a differrent beast to what they have been used to so the key to all player acquisition is skills development and finding a fit on the roster long enough for that to come to fruition.
 
He's not only freaky athletic, he seems to have some physicality to him and some ballhawking skills

His pro day compared to the CBs at the Combine

4.38 40 (only Trae Waynes had a better 40 at the combine)

23 Reps of 225 LBs (only Josh Shaw had more at the combine)

39" Vert Jump (Only 5 guys had a better one and they were all drafted in the 3rd round or higher
Byron Jones 44.5"- 1st round pick
Kevin Johnson 41.5"- 1st round pick
Ronald Darby 41.5"- 2nd round pick
PJ Williams 40"- 3rd round pick
Alex Carter 40'- 3rd round pick

11' 10" Broad Jump (Only Byron Jones had a better jump at the combine which was a world record)

6.66. 3 Cone (Only Justin Coleman had a better one )

Looking forward to seeing how he does in camp. BB could have another draft steal on his hands.

Nice.. rEVIS wHO?
 
Google "David Robinson NBA 1st round pick".
And then tell me how the Navy will be convinced to let this 5th round NFL draft pick join the Patriots this year.

So there's no chance for him to get an exception, despite what's being reported?
 
Wilson has the lowest QB rating against of any Patriots DB over the past 2 seasons. He might not be getting a lot of reps but he is actually very effective in the hybrid safety/LB role. The kid has the same amount of interceptions in the last 3 seasons as Revis. He is not all bad so I agree with your position. He is a good ST player and contributes on defense. Not sure why posters choose to compare players to the 1 or maybe 2 studs in a round and say why didn't we draft him, well because they were the anomalies. Second round DBs are not generally stars, when it happens it is a rarity.

I guess most of those people that make fun of the Tavon Wilson selection made up their mind after the Seattle game in 2012. And it is not terribly surprising given that there still some idiots around here who think that DMac is an overvalued and overpayed safety. It is the NFL highlights / fantasy football generation.
 
Comparatively to virtually any BB criticisms, I would say criticism of the Jordan Richards pick probably has the most justification. The fact that in the aftermath of Tavon Wilson and Duron Harmon we're still going to the safety well, and doing so in the typical conventional wisdom overdraft fashion, shows that the strategy hasn't worked the way BB has wanted it to. We as fans should be somewhat wary of going through it again.

This is coming from someone who is a fan of both Wilson and Harmon, and who thinks Richards has a place in the NFL as well.
 
Well i can't find another explanation for draft picks such wilson, richards, r brace or the others that have come in the second or third round. So I do believe it

It's because the scouting department as a whole has a different opinion on those players. No more, no less and certainly no need for any BS conspiracy theories.
 
I guess most of those people that make fun of the Tavon Wilson selection made up their mind after the Seattle game in 2012. And it is not terribly surprising given that there still some idiots around here who think that DMac is an overvalued and overpayed safety. It is the NFL highlights / fantasy football generation.

No but after 3 years we can conclusively declare that he is very good special teamer and an serviceable player in the secondary. He is not a better free safety than Harmon nor is a better SS than Chung.
 
No but after 3 years we can conclusively declare that he is very good special teamer and an serviceable player in the secondary. He is not a better free safety than Harmon nor is a better SS than Chung.

I am not claiming otherwise. But there is a difference between a draft bust (see Dion Jordan) and someone who ended up being servicable. And the way some people make fun of Tavon Wilson you'd think he was in the former category.
 
Comparatively to virtually any BB criticisms, I would say criticism of the Jordan Richards pick probably has the most justification. The fact that in the aftermath of Tavon Wilson and Duron Harmon we're still going to the safety well, and doing so in the typical conventional wisdom overdraft fashion, shows that the strategy hasn't worked the way BB has wanted it to. We as fans should be somewhat wary of going through it again.

This is coming from someone who is a fan of both Wilson and Harmon, and who thinks Richards has a place in the NFL as well.

The "he was selected too early and NE could have gotten him and another good prospect!" argument has merit, as long as the person making it willfully accepts several potential exaggerations.

1) Exaggerating the success of the player missed - By the end of the second round, even the best prospect only has about a 50% chance of being better than Tavon Wilson. And maybe a 20% chance of being substantially so. Of all the names bandied about as guys NE should have taken, half won't make it to a second contract with their team no matter how enticing they look now.

2) Understating the ability of the player selected - Using Tavon as an example, NE's evaluation of him - the best remaining player on the board at a position of serious need - has actually been proven correct. You can argue whether they should have been so need conscious, but the assessment was on target.

3) Exaggerating the risk of selecting a "reach" - 2009 is a great example of this: two reaches (Brace/Vollmer) and two appropriate (Chung/Butler), both groups were 50/50 successes with the biggest hit being the biggest reach.

Sure, it's a small sample, but the same is born out over a lager scale, with guys like Brace, Tavon, Wheatley, Bethel Johnson and Marquise Hill being offset by Vollmer, Mankins, Branch and Collins.

To take it a step further, while there are plenty of "droppers" like Wilfork and Cannon who have proven to be worth the investment, there have been plenty of value picks that sucked as well, like Tate, Jackson, Butler and Meriweather.

So, basically NE has about the same hit rate on reaches as they do anywhere else and the success rate of guys passed over is much lower than people suggest. As long as you position your lamenting within that framework, I'm fine. :)

With regard to the "another safety" assertion, I'm not completely on board with that, either. While that could be an indictment on those selections, it is possible the team plans to play McCourty more at CB this year. It also should be noted that neither Wilson nor Harmon play the way Richards does, it's like saying that drafting a NT is a due to poor drafting at the UT position the last couple years. It really doesn't work that way.

It's also possible that Harmon is on a solid track, but this means the team is moving on from Wilson.... but that would mean they are batting 50% in late second+ selections, which is well within league average.
To try and make that argument, you'd have to say that NE is moving on from both of them, with is pretty baseless at this point.
 
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I am not claiming otherwise. But there is a difference between a draft bust (see Dion Jordan) and someone who ended up being servicable. And the way some people make fun of Tavon Wilson you'd think he was in the former category.

I agree. I hate how casually the term "bust" is thrown around. It takes time to reach the conclusion that a player is truly a bust. One also needs to define the criteria for a bust.

If the criteria was that a 2nd round pick is not full-time starter or play-maker on D and a player that will not receive a 2nd contract from the team- he is, to cruelly state, a bust.

The problem is fighting the perception of being drafted in the 2nd round as the expectation is that the player will be a starter. In the broader view, hes played in 45 regular season games, started four and has played in 7 playoff games in pretty important moments and has made some plays. Hes a core STer. Has 5 career picks. I guarantee you that is better than 80-90%% of the second rounders that are playing in the NFL today that were drafted in the last 5 years. That doesn't sound like a bust to me.
 
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I still hate where the pick was made and I still don't think he's going to have the athleticism to cover in space but the Pats did get very good value at the guard positions the following day so it's hard for me to hate the pick too much. I still wish the team would have done more at the CB position but I've resigned myself to the fact that this may be another situation like 2012 where the team has to make an in-season trade.
 
Belichick would have been more of genius if he had drafted Brady and Edelman in the 2nd and 3rd when other had them rated as 6th or 7th round values.

He would? Wouldn't that mean he is an idiot for not recognizing the market for the player and not giving himself access to a better batch of prospects by waiting? Isn't that what everyone is complaining about with regard to Richards? Now selecting guys earlier than expected is a sign of genius?

This GM critique carousel is hard to figure out. :)
 
That is NOT my point. Belichick has about a 10% rate of success with late round picks and UDFA's. IMHO, Roberts may be the early favorite as the most likely of the long shots to make the roster.

Why are you combining UDFAs and late round picks? UDFAs are naturally going to be a lot lower because you sign so many of them and so few can make the team. I'd be far more interested in success rates for 6th and 7th rounders since those are the true comparables.
 
Good teams get lucky in identifying long shots with a chance, and seeing fast enough that they have value. Certainly, Belichick is one of the best at finding such nuggets.

Pete Carroll has done fine job in Seattle too.:)
 
The only experts capable of that I've heard are all ex-NFL personnel guys who have jobs that require them to study game film, attend Senior Bowl practices, attend NFL training camps, etc.

Phil Savage. Pat Kirwin. Bill Polian.

I can't think of any talking head on ESPN or NFL Network that is capable. Certainly nobody on Boston radio or TV. Ex-players are terrible at it. Ex-coaches could do it, but most don't do the film study required.

I don't think Savage or Kirwin or Polian would predict with certainty what round a player will be picked, except the 16 or so players Polian says have first round grades in an average draft. But, all three are discerning enough to understand differences between players at a given position and what type of player at a position might be a better fit for what Team A or Team B is looking for in terms of attributes, system, etc.

That's the level of sophistication that is missing from the TV pundits and draft gurus.

Absolutely. And the two network guys with the capability don't have an army of scouts watching prospects at games and talking to coaches and players for them. Therefore, they apply their capabilities to the media-worthy players (being employed by media companies), rather than the larger number of NFL-worthy players with which the draft is concerned, and they are limited to what they see on film and at the combine. They also have posh jobs and don't work 60+hour weeks breaking down film for the express purpose of building a football team.

I look at the draft coverage and can only answer the question, "Am I excited by the Jordan Richards pick?" The answer is "No," but so what? I was excited by the Malcom Brown pick in the first round, as that seemed like the definitive need to me, and I was excited by the Tre Jackson pick in the 4th round, but that was just me reacting to the expectations game, thinking we got good value, just like the Richards naysayers are doing in the 2nd.

The team is taking shape, but most of the action is taking place outside of our line-of-sight. I'm looking forward to TC. Until then, I can update my mood, but I'm not offering, nor am I expecting, informed opinions in the meantime.
 
I still hate where the pick was made and I still don't think he's going to have the athleticism to cover in space but the Pats did get very good value at the guard positions the following day so it's hard for me to hate the pick too much. I still wish the team would have done more at the CB position but I've resigned myself to the fact that this may be another situation like 2012 where the team has to make an in-season trade.
I feel the same way. Getting some guards with a mean streak later on has made me less concerned about this pick. He seems like another Chung to me. Smart, hard-working, tough, but limited in coverage. I guess that's not so bad at #64. If they drafted Cann there like I wanted, they probably wouldn't have drafted Mason, and that kid intrigues me.
 
The "he was selected too early and NE could have gotten him and another good prospect!" argument has merit, as long as the person making it willfully accepts several potential exaggerations.

While I liked so many players ahead of Richards at that 64 slot (AJ Cann, Jaelen Strong, PJ Williams, David Johnson, Sammy Coates), I think it hasn't been remarked upon in this thread that Richards was slated as a 3rd rounder by many analysts up until a few weeks before the draft when he started dropping in the composites.

I imagine that once the "mockers" start to see a player drop, they then jump the bandwagon and the player really starts a slide. So I ask, what made the consensus believe he was a 3rd rounder only 3 or 4 weeks ago? Why did he become a 5th/6th rounder leading to the draft? Is it groupthink? We don't know. Similarly, Cody Prewitt was a composite first rounder. Then dropped to the 2nd round only a couple weeks before the draft, and right before the draft, he was end of 3rd round. Ended up undrafted.

I still don't like the Richards pick but we have to at least mention that he was considered as high as a 3rd rounder by a great deal of people only weeks before the draft.
 
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