My take on "Cap is Crap"

Miguel said:

Fair enough. That is still not enough space to account for the players 52, 53, practice squad, players signed to replace players who go on injured reserve, reached NLTBE 46-man active roster bonuses..


I am just using the structure adopted by Patriots critics (match Jets' structure or retain Revis at $25 million.

I am surprised that Revis preferred a salary guarantee over a signing bonus because a signing bonus meant money in his pockets in March, not in September.

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I think in all likelihood the Pats didn't offer him a comparable deal. They probably lowballed him. It's somewhat irrational to prefer a GTD salary as opposed to a bonus as you said.

Miguel said:

to a deal that involved a signing bonus which I had proposed for months ago. My point is that the Pats would be in cap jail if they had matched the structure of the Jets' offer or if they picked up Revis' option.

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I tend to think of cap jail in a sense of you have to shed w/o adding, a la the Carolina Panthers last season. If we were adding Revis and subtracting from other parts of our roster, that's not cap jail to me, it's more substituting an important player instead of other important players like a McCourty or a Solder.

McClusky said:

I don't necessarily see the flexibility as being more important than a HOF caliber player at a position we have a history of struggling to fill, but with Miguel clarifying his stance I am more inclined to agree with him than with what I thought he was arguing.

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"Flexibility" is, of course, short-hand for not only the maneuverability but for the players would would/might have been lost as well.

I also think you can't just gloss over the fact that the Jets would almost certainly have made it an even more difficult match had NE actually been willing to do so.

Oswlek said:

"Flexibility" is, of course, short-hand for not only the maneuverability but for the players would would/might have been lost as well.

I also think you can't just gloss over the fact that the Jets would almost certainly have made it an even more difficult match had NE actually been willing to do so.

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I'm not really glossing it over as so much questioning its relevance. If the Jets offer more it's still not a bad result for the Pats. They've just taken more cap space away from the Jets in the process. What we do know is that the Pats weren't close to the Jets offer, which we got confirmation from Revis himself. The fact that the Pats may ultimately not have been able to match the Jets final offer if the stakes were higher is not of much relevance to whether or not the Pats should have at least offered a comparable deal to what Revis ultimately got.

McClusky said:

I'm not really glossing it over as so much questioning its relevance.

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Why? It seems like a critical element to me. Yes, the narrative is that NE never even matched it, but that isn't nearly as important as you are making it out to be. It is possible - I'd argue probable - that the Patriots would have gladly upped their offer had there been a realistic chance of winning the bid. Instead, they realized early on that not only were the Jets higher than they wanted to go, but that the Jets were certain to bump it up. Why get into a fight you can't win?

Oswlek said:

Why? It seems like a critical element to me. Yes, the narrative is that NE never even matched it, but that isn't nearly as important as you are making it out to be. It is possible - I'd argue probable - that the Patriots would have gladly upped their offer had there been a realistic chance of winning the bid. Instead, they realized early on that not only were the Jets higher than they wanted to go, but that the Jets were certain to bump it up. Why get into a fight you can't win?

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Well I mean the $40 million gtd money that Revis wanted was floated out well before the window even opened. If the Pats had the same valuation on Revis it makes sense to put that number out on the table. The worst case scenario is that the Jets would go over what you offered and win Revis. At the end of the day that is a better result for the Pats than what ultimately happened, so I don't see where the disconnect is.

McClusky said:

I'm simply challenging the process. ...
What Revis got was a 5 years $70 million with $39 million guaranteed.

Miguel wasn't really that far off with his initial offer. Fully guarantee that year 2 salary from the onset and tack on $3 million to that number, and throw on a dummy year at the end .....

That is why I have such an issue with the notion that the Pats simply couldn't afford Revis because the hit to the salary cap hit would have been too much. They didn't sign him because they didn't want to guarantee the money for a franchise type player in his 30's. They wanted flexibility rather than putting their dime down on that player. I'm not totally sure if I agree with that stance or not, but I do have concerns with our CB core and our ability to develop #1 type talent at that position. I just think it's the easy route for fans to say we couldn't afford it rather acknowledge the big risk the Pats took by not at least making a competitive offer for Revis. Especially when the Revis contract we near universally agreed upon in February was not all that far off in true value from what Revis actually got.

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I just think it's the easy route for fans to complain about:
'The "BIG RISK" the patriots took by not at least making a competitive offer for revis' when that risk is <<<<<<< the BIG RISK of putting 20% of your cap in A SINGLE PLAYER. Who is also OVER age 30 AND plays at a position that gets a WHIFF of the ball 10 plays a game at best and may actually touch the ball only 4-5 times if you are lucky.

McClusky said:

Well I mean the $40 million gtd money that Revis wanted was floated out well before the window even opened. If the Pats had the same valuation on Revis it makes sense to put that number out on the table. The worst case scenario is that the Jets would go over what you offered and win Revis. At the end of the day that is a better result for the Pats than what ultimately happened, so I don't see where the disconnect is.

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Fair enough.

Gumby said:

I just think it's the easy route for fans to complain about:
'The "BIG RISK" the patriots took by not at least making a competitive offer for revis' when that risk is <<<<<<< the BIG RISK of putting 20% of your cap in A SINGLE PLAYER. Who is also OVER age 30 AND plays at a position that gets a WHIFF of the ball 10 plays a game at best and may actually touch the ball 4-5 times.

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I think we've all seen the impact of what bad CB play can bring you, as well as what good CB play can bring. The Pats really have nobody in the pipeline as of today, nor did they have any good contingencies on the FA market. The 20% number isn't accurate either. Revis would have to carry a cap hit of around $36 million to account for that percentage.

I don't deny that there would have been some risk involved in making Revis an offer that large at his age, but it's not like the Pats aren't taking a similarly big risk going into 2015 with the top corner being someone currently on the Pats depth chart.

McClusky said:

I think we've all seen the impact of what bad CB play can bring you, as well as what good CB play can bring. The Pats really have nobody in the pipeline as of today, nor did they have any good contingencies on the FA market. The 20% number isn't accurate either. Revis would have to carry a cap hit of around $36 million to account for that percentage.

I don't deny that there would have been some risk involved in making Revis an offer that large at his age, but it's not like the Pats aren't taking a similarly big risk going into 2015 with the top corner being someone currently on the Pats depth chart.

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Answer (rebuttal) = 2 words:

Earthwind Moreland

Gumby said:

Answer (rebuttal) = 2 words:

Earthwind Moreland

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The league has substantially changed since 2004. You merely have to look at a trendline of Points and Yards.

Answer = 2 words:
Darius Butler

McClusky said:

I think we've all seen the impact of what bad CB play can bring you, as well as what good CB play can bring. The Pats really have nobody in the pipeline as of today, nor did they have any good contingencies on the FA market. The 20% number isn't accurate either. Revis would have to carry a cap hit of around $36 million to account for that percentage.

I don't deny that there would have been some risk involved in making Revis an offer that large at his age, but it's not like the Pats aren't taking a similarly big risk going into 2015 with the top corner being someone currently on the Pats depth chart.

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If it was all so simple and painless as accepting "some" risk.. why didn't Belichick do it?

Is he an idiot?

Belichick wants to win games. He wants to do what is best for the team.

If it was all as easy as his critics want to pretend it is (remember, you're taking the same side as the Felger here) then why wouldn't he just resign him?

Maybe its very much more complicated when you know all the facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

(Dont mean to be snarky with the Dunning-Kruger link, but I feel we amateurs are giving ourselves way too much credit in how "easy" managing an NFL team is).

Danger Zone said:

If it was all so simple and painless as accepting "some" risk.. why didn't Belichick do it?

Is he an idiot?

Belichick wants to win games. He wants to do what is best for the team.

If it was all as easy as his critics want to pretend it is (remember, you're taking the same side as the Felger here) then why wouldn't he just resign him?

Maybe its very much more complicated when you know all the facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

(Dont mean to be snarky with the Dunning-Kruger link, but I feel we amateurs are giving ourselves way too much credit in how "easy" managing an NFL team is).

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If we're not going to question any of the moves the Pats make, and rely on the assumption that since they're in the position they must know best, when clearly the Pats like any other team have made mistakes, there isn't much purpose to this board other than to go "rahrah the Pats are the bees knees".

The salary cap isn't all that complicated of a concept to grasp. Player evaluation is the harder part for me, but even so there has been areas where I have been right in the past on, where BB has made mistakes, and admittedly he's been right a lot of times where I have been wrong. That's what makes this all fun.

McClusky said:

If we're not going to question any of the moves the Pats make, and rely on the assumption that since they're in the position they must know best, when clearly the Pats like any other team have made mistakes, there isn't much purpose to this board other than to go "rahrah the Pats are the bees knees".

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Scoops?

well, for someone who takes such pleasure in "I gotcha Belechick!", I'd think you'd want to move on to another team to sink your astute fangs into so as to maximize your pleasure. The past 14 years has the Patriots as THE MOST SUCCESSFUL FRANCHISE IN THE NFL. Sorta ridiculous playing "I gotcha!" with the best. You should probably consider the Jaguars, seeing as how the "gotcha!" count would almost certainly dwarf anything you could ever hope to attain versus BB and the Patriots.

I guess it's not a matter of "couldn't have possibly done it." It's a matter of "could have done it but didn't." Hell I have no idea what kind of theoretical limits are on the stupit money we could give Revis - maybe, in theory, we could have doubled the JEST guaranteed money. However, that would be self-destructive.

And that's that. I'm intrigued by the idea that the Pats would offer slightly more than they'd value Revis at, trying to drive up the price to the JEST, but that's evidently on the other side of a line they didn't want to go over. You really are worth X to us, not X + 1 million dollars, so we're not going to offer X + 1 million (simplified version of "NO we're not guaranteeing that!")

You can try to drive up the other guy's bid, but you might get stuck having to pay past value. So, we're on to 2015. We're on to 2015. We're on to 2015.

(And I say that being a guy who thought "getting Revis done" was a huge off-season priority, early on.)

Joker said:

well, for someone who takes such pleasure in "I gotcha Belechick!", I'd think you'd want to move on to another team to sink your astute fangs into so as to maximize your pleasure. The past 14 years has the Patriots as THE MOST SUCCESSFUL FRANCHISE IN THE NFL. Sorta ridiculous playing "I gotcha!" with the best. You should probably consider the Jaguars, seeing as how the "gotcha!" count would almost certainly dwarf anything you could ever hope to attain versus BB and the Patriots.

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Well, a fan's resume looks that much better when you're right and BB is wrong. It means something, doesn't it? Doesn't it? Hello? Hello?

Joker said:

well, for someone who takes such pleasure in "I gotcha Belechick!", I'd think you'd want to move on to another team to sink your astute fangs into so as to maximize your pleasure. The past 14 years has the Patriots as THE MOST SUCCESSFUL FRANCHISE IN THE NFL. Sorta ridiculous playing "I gotcha!" with the best. You should probably consider the Jaguars, seeing as how the "gotcha!" count would almost certainly dwarf anything you could ever hope to attain versus BB and the Patriots.

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It really has nothing to do with saying "Gotcha Belichick" it has more to do with me enjoying forming my own opinions. It's satisfying when BB goes the route you wanted too, I'm just not going to flip my opinions instantly and pretend my prior convictions weren't my prior convictions just because BB went another way.

You printed THIS on this forum ...

there isn't much purpose to this board other than to go "rahrah the Pats are the bees knees"

This board serves MANY purposes that suit many DIFFERENT types of Pats fans. For you to dig your heels into the sand and boast about your "victories" over Belichick and then claim anything else but total acquiescence to YOUR winning decisions doesn't have "much purpose to the board " is a strikingly narrow, markedly egotistical thing to assert.

Joker said:

You printed THIS on this forum ...

there isn't much purpose to this board other than to go "rahrah the Pats are the bees knees"

This board serves MANY purposes that suit many DIFFERENT types of Pats fans. For you to dig your heels into the sand and boast about your "victories" over Belechick and then claim anything else but total acquiescence to YOUR winning decisions doesn't have "much purpose to the board " is a strikingly narrow, markedly egotistical thing to assert.

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That's a pretty intense twist on everything that has been said. I've boasted about nothing. Merely stated that I've been right and wrong about things in the past. Having discourse on the nature of what our opinions are of the Pats is the very nature of this board. The words you quoted are my standard response to, "why are you questioning the Pats?". I really see no reason not to if I feel I have a good reason to. My questioning has no implication on the Pats at all.

If you're not open to that please feel free to ignore me.