Seriously...why is it taking so long?

cmasspatsfan said:

My guess is it comes out prior to the draft especially if the Pats are exonerated, there might be some blow back from the haters but then the draft would divert their attention away from it shortly thereafter.

Click to expand...

That would work for all of us just fine! I'd take that. Your scenario makes sense, assuming that is what they find, of course.

Wells Report release will be the morning of the Patriots visit to the White House. Book it.

No way the NFL wants controversy when the Super Bowl champions visit the president

I was expressing sarcasm. Poor job by me.

I'm starting to think it never comes out. Maybe the entire deflation issue was a bad dream. It would make sense. Why would such an issue actually make a difference ? That's what I'm going with : it never happened and no report is coming out...

nice video of air in a wine glass cooling, lowering the pressure, such that wine is drawn back up into it.

Good ammo for people who cannot comprehend the basic idea

Good video.
Now explain the effect...
It's a little more subtle than just temperature & pressure.

The flame warms up the air under the glass until the oxygen is all consumed. When the flame is extinguished the air cools. Thus the interior pressure drops, like a cooled football. The wine is then pulled in until the exterior and interior pressures are equalized.

There is an added effect, which you must be alluding to. As the candle wax (a hydrocarbon mixture) burns, O2 is converted to CO2 plus H2O.

If the wax is, on average, a C25 hydrocarbon, the combustion reaction is:

C25H52 + 38 O2 → 25 CO2 + 26 H2O

Thus there is a bit of added pressure buildup at first due to more molecules of gases (including water vapor) formed than were consumed. Then as the water vapor condenses to liquid form, internal pressure then drops a little more (fewer molecules of gas remain than were consumed)

The dominant factor, though, should be the temperature / pressure effect, but you're right that it isn't the only relevant factor

PBPF, [my best Bill & Ted imitation] Ex-cellent...!!

Palm Beach Pats Fan said:

The dominant factor, though, should be the temperature / pressure effect, but you're right that it isn't the only relevant factor

Click to expand...

But I don't think so...

What you said is correct. And I learned about the generation of CO2 from your post. (I guessed, wrongly, that all the O2 got converted into either water or some waxy byproduct.)

While the air is cooler that it was at a midpoint in the experiment, there is nothing (including air) that is cooler at the end of the experiment than it was at the beginning (when the glass is placed over the flame). The air in the glass is almost certainly still pretty hot, since the flame will be several hundred degrees & glass is a pretty good insulator.

If I take a fixed volume of air, heat it up & then cool it back down to the same starting temp, it has exactly the same pressure in the 2nd cool state that it had in the 1st cool state. So "cooling down" didn't produce the vacuum.

I'm thunking my way thru this, because I've not seen this trick before.
Just playing with first principles, and absolutely could turn out to be wrong.
That's the fun of going public with what one thinks...

3 questions, that tip my thinking on this:

1. Can the glass to plate interface be water-tight, under the pressure provided by the vacuum in the glass?
2. Can the glass to plate interface be air-tight, under the pressure provided by the vacuum in the glass?
3. IF the glass to plate interface were water-tight under that pressure, what would happen in the experiment? (Giving away the answer to question 1)
   
4. In the football case, we've assumed that nR/V = a constant. Is that true here?

It is not a fixed mass of air in the glass...

As the candle burns and the air expands, air bubbles escape through the wine.

See the video at the 42 second mark up to the 50 sec mark- vigorous bubbling!

At the instant the flame burns out there is a fixed volume of (nitrogen + CO2 + water vapor + argon) at atmospheric pressure. As the gas mix cools, it contracts to a smaller volume as wine comes into the glass.

Just read the specs on my car tires.
If anyone gets into a Patriots deflate gate discussion with a fan of another team, ask them if they're a car buff. If yes, ask them about the rules for inflating car tires and the whys & wherefores. Has worked well for me with non-Pats fans who all conceded that temp drop would reduce football psi.
And, "there's a formula for that"

Palm Beach Pats Fan said:

It is not a fixed mass of air in the glass...
As the candle burns and the air expands, air bubbles escape through the wine.
See the video at the 42 second mark up to the 50 sec mark- vigorous bubbling!

Click to expand...

Those bubbles are on the inside of the glass, not on the outside. You'll also notice that, at the time shown, the wine is already being pulled INTO the glass, indicating that there is a vacuum in the glass. You can also see a surface tension formed step in the wine, as it thins down right next to the glass.

Those bubbles are just air/CO2/gasses being pulled out of the wine by the vacuum.

Palm Beach Pats Fan said:

As the candle burns and the air expands, air bubbles escape through the wine.

Click to expand...

This is the key. As the candle burns in the glass, there are two competing effects.

1) the air is expanding because it is heating.
2) O2 is being converted into CO2, but as you point out, 38 molecules of O2 turn into 25 molecules of CO2. Those two molecules take up identical amount of space, so (in the erroneous assumption that the candle burns out all of the O2), 21% of the air (the O2 component) turns into .21(25/38) = .14 = 14% of the air (in the form of CO2). You lose (21% - 14%) = 7% of the gas.

Now, a perfect vacuum will lift water about 33'. 7% vacuum will lift water .07 x 33' x 12"/' = 28". Wow.

But, in reality, MUCH less (only about 10%) of the O2 gets converted before the flame goes out.
The flame extinguishes when the O2 concentration drops to around 19%. see: https://www.picotech.com/library/results/burning-oxygen

So this drops the 7% down to (2/21) x .07 = .007 = 0.7% & the potential lift to just 2.8". Enough to pull the wine into the glass.

And this lift (& the 0.7% vacuum created by O2 -> CO2 conversion) is slightly offset (i.e., reduced) by the heating of the gasses, as you mentioned.

I was curious as to which effect would win the race at the start, when the glass is first placed over the candle. It seems clear from the video that no air is pushed out of the glass due to thermal expansion, and the conversion of O2 to Co2 (& the slight pressure drop that results) wins the race, right from the start.

Palm Beach Pats Fan said:

At the instant the flame burns out there is a fixed volume of (nitrogen + CO2 + water vapor + argon) at atmospheric pressure. As the gas mix cools, it contracts to a smaller volume as wine comes into the glass.

Click to expand...

Nope. While the flame is still burning (well before the flame goes out) there is already a vacuum in the glass due to the conversion of O2 to CO2. That's seen by the lifted wine & those vacuum-generated bubbles, both occurring inside the glass.
__

BTW, the points of my questions were:

1. The glass to plate seal can NOT be water-tight, otherwise the wine couldn't flow into the glass.
2. Since it isn't water-tight, it certainly can NOT be air-tight.
3. Not being air-tight, it is entirely possible for heated, expanded air to get pushed out of the glass.

But it is clear from the video that this didn't happen.

And the effect is due solely to the conversion of just a small percent (~10%) of the O2 into a smaller amount of CO2.
__

So, this doesn't apply much at all to the primary cause of the pressure loss in footballs, the temp drop.

With one slight exception that we haven't discussed very much.

There is one slight effect that that this might mimic: The condensation of some of the water vapor into liquid water as the air inside the balls cooled from ~ 75°F to ~50°F. If this happened, then it is exactly like some gaseous oxygen in the glass being converted into liquid water.

And if some water vapor gets turned into liquid water, then n (in "nR/V") is, again, not quite a constant.

Thanks for this, PBPF.
This was fun.

Three month anniversary.

Many insects and relationships don't last this long.

I rewatched the SB recently. Collinsworth was still talking about Deflate gate shortly before the final Edelman touchdown. "The next month is going to be huge" he said. We are now nearing 3 months with nothing new.

Kdo5 said:

I rewatched the SB recently. Collinsworth was still talking about Deflate gate shortly before the final Edelman touchdown. "The next month is going to be huge" he said. We are now nearing 3 months with nothing new.

Click to expand...

Piss me off. Right as an unprecedented HISTORIC comeback drive is about to conclude, this Yahoo starts blathering out of nowhere about deflated footballs showing us, as if we did not already know, that he is ignorant of HS physics and has no perspective whatsoever on SB history and on a player showing right then and there that he is truly the GOAT. Where was THAT commentary???

Instead he pollutes the audio track of the historic game for all time with nonsense.

Roger Goodell is praying for a natural disaster so he can release the (non)results. Either that or Game 7 of the NBA Finals or the MLB All Star Game.

Maybe they can read it all live on the PA at the Thursday Night season opener ! Then, after hundreds of pages, reveal the SB banner.

It has now been exactly 3 months to the day since the Mort report dropped. That f**ker.

Can anyone beleive we're a week away from the draft and we've got nothing from the LO and Wells on this issue? The Tampering issue with the Jets has been buried as well.

The Tampering case should be a slam-dunk. They tampered. Period. Based on historical decisions from this administration it should be a forgone conclusion. I don't get it. The ball-inflation issue was an obvious set-up. Did the Patriots keep balls at the lowest allowed PSI to get better grip in the game? Of course. Tom sent the balls to the umps for approval.

They were approved. Now Kensil an Grigson, who have an obvious bias towards NE, want the rules changed on the fly to satisfy there personal grudges. The only thing I can figure is the overwhelming backlash the LO may experience with a decision that unfairly punishes the defending champions.

Should the league go againt previous decisions and dismiss the Jets tampering case and unfairly punish this franchise for an obvious matter of science they will get crucified, an deservedly so.