Aaron Hernandez found guilty of first-degree murder

Marinlik · Apr 17, 2015

chasa said:
That's the problem with absolutes. in the majority of cases there is no way to be 100% sure. in this case he admits he was at the scene where it happened. so either he, or his two friends, committed the murder. if he wasn't teh trigger man he should have gone to the police and told them who was, instead he lived by his "snitches get stitches" thug lifestyle. IMO protecting the person that committed murder, is just as bad as committing the murder.

like i said, old testemaent

Still, should someone get executed for not reporting a murder? I think that that death penalties in general is something that does not belong in a civilized society. The only reason I could see for a death penalty to be warranted is if the person is still a danger to society, even when in prison. But that's something that basically never happens. I don't think that the society and government should kill people as punishment. Only when it's to save future lives. So what about Hernandez? I don't believe that he will be a danger to society in prison, so he shouldn't get executed.

Brit patriot · Apr 17, 2015

A huge problem with execution is that I don't trust the police, or 12 of my peers to get the decision right. Hence, if you execute someone, you can hardly say 'oops, my bad'.

In an adversarial legal system, you have prosecutors trying to get someone found guilty, who they may think is innocent, because it is their job. You also have defence attorneys trying to get violent killers off, because it is their job.

People will fall through the holes there, hence why LWP at least gives you a chance to make things right if you find you have botched (in a way)

chasa · Apr 17, 2015

Marinlik said:
Still, should someone get executed for not reporting a murder? I think that that death penalties in general is something that does not belong in a civilized society. The only reason I could see for a death penalty to be warranted is if the person is still a danger to society, even when in prison. But that's something that basically never happens. I don't think that the society and government should kill people as punishment. Only when it's to save future lives. So what about Hernandez? I don't believe that he will be a danger to society in prison, so he shouldn't get executed.

"In 2003 among facilities operated by the Federal Bureau of Prisons, it cost $25,327 per inmate." you have to assume that number has gone up in the last 12 years.

I guess it depends on what you consider "saving future lives" think of all the high risk criminals we have in prisons, and then think about how for each one the government could put $20k-$30k per criminal A YEAR to better use.

2010 numbers show 166,700 people were in prison for murder. if you take the average cost from 2003 that comes to 4,167,500,000 for the entirety of the united states.

I don't know about you, but I can think of a whole lot of ways to save peoples live, or make the lives of those who don't murder people, better with 4 billion dollars a year.

NormZauchin · Apr 17, 2015

Galeb said:
Capital punishment is a tough issue, one that I have changed my mind on multiple times. How can a society say that killing is wrong, then kill those who do it? Hypocrisy for the greater good?

How a society can ethically punish is a slippery slope. At this time, IMO expulsion from said society is perhaps the limit to which societies can ethically punish. For those ruled not too dangerous, voluntary rehabilitation should be an option.

All that said, if as a society we raised our children to be good people and good parents, there would be very little violent crime.

In the case of psychopaths or sociopaths, I do not think that research supports the idea that environment is the determining factor. Hernandez grew up with both parents in a small home that they owned in a community where both his athletic prowess and that of his father were respected. I do not think this upbringing is much different than that of many members of this board (excepting perhaps the athletic prowess part).
I recently finished the book Bloodlands, by Yale historian Timothy Snyder. He documents the mass murders of Hitler and Stalin in the lands of Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine, from 1932 to 1945, not only the Holocaust, but also other events, like Hitler's starving to death of 3 million Russian prisoners of war, Stalin's starving to death of 3 million Ukrainians in the early 1930s, and Hitler's terror bombing of Warsaw, which killed more civilians than the Allied firebombing of Dresden. Snyder did not include pictures of atrocities, but one can go on the internet and see countless visual documentation, usually taken by the perpetrators themselves. Recently published research, which was gathered from transcripts of secretly taped German prisoner of war conversations among themselves, shows that the German soldiers, for the most part, showed no remorse at killing civilians, even children.
I have no regret that at Nuremburg many among the Nazi leadership were found guilty of war crimes and were executed. Nor am I sad that Timothy McVeigh and John Mohammad paid the supreme penalty. Multiple murders, or murders involving physical or psychological torture, or murders of children are all particularly heinous and the perpetrators of these crimes should at least be considered for the death penalty.

Galeb · Apr 17, 2015

NormZauchin said:
In the case of psychopaths or sociopaths, I do not think that research supports the idea that environment is the determining factor. Hernandez grew up with both parents in a small home that they owned in a community where both his athletic prowess and that of his father were respected. I do not think this upbringing is much different than that of many members of this board (excepting perhaps the athletic prowess part).
I recently finished the book Bloodlands, by Yale historian Timothy Snyder. He documents the mass murders of Hitler and Stalin in the lands of Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine, from 1932 to 1945, not only the Holocaust, but also other events, like Hitler's starving to death of 3 million Russian prisoners of war, Stalin's starving to death of 3 million Ukrainians in the early 1930s, and Hitler's terror bombing of Warsaw, which killed more civilians than the Allied firebombing of Dresden. Snyder did not include pictures of atrocities, but one can go on the internet and see countless visual documentation, usually taken by the perpetrators themselves. Recently published research, which was gathered from transcripts of secretly taped German prisoner of war conversations among themselves, shows that the German soldiers, for the most part, showed no remorse at killing civilians, even children.
I have no regret that at Nuremburg many among the Nazi leadership were found guilty of war crimes and were executed. Nor am I sad that Timothy McVeigh and John Mohammad paid the supreme penalty. Multiple murders, or murders involving physical or psychological torture, or murders of children are all particularly heinous and the perpetrators of these crimes should at least be considered for the death penalty.

There are disorders that can make people inherently dangerous that we can't cure right now. The number of people that affected by those disorders is tiny.

Societal failings after WWI created a system where there was mass hardship and desperation. A responsible society that raises children properly would not knowingly create such a situation.

Raising a child properly means more than just a couple shooting from the hip with good intentions. Raising children is one of the most important things that we do as a society, and we have vast amounts of data on how to do it properly. There are a variety of systems that grow children into remarkable people with an extremely high success rate, but as a society we ignore them. Our educational system teaches kids to be ready for the work force but completely neglects teaching them how to be good people and good parents. If we teach our kids to be good people and parents, they will become competent professions. Shooting from the hip with good intentions is not nearly good enough.

RecoveringCowboy · Apr 17, 2015

I saw part of a 70's movie - Terminal Island.

Convicted murders were exiled to a remote island, declared legally dead, had food airdropped, left to their own devices. I like the concept of finding a way to spend as little money as possible on most of these felons, and maybe let them kill each other off.

We are just about at the 20th anniversary of the OKC Bombing and comfortable with McVeigh's execution as there is no doubt he was guilty of mass murder and would have done it again.

PatsWickedPissah · Apr 17, 2015

Read Robert Heinlein's "Coventry"

NormZauchin · Apr 17, 2015

Galeb said:
There are disorders that can make people inherently dangerous that we can't cure right now. The number of people that affected by those disorders is tiny.

Societal failings after WWI created a system where there was mass hardship and desperation. A responsible society that raises children properly would not knowingly create such a situation.

Raising a child properly means more than just a couple shooting from the hip with good intentions. Raising children is one of the most important things that we do as a society, and we have vast amounts of data on how to do it properly. There are a variety of systems that grow children into remarkable people with an extremely high success rate, but as a society we ignore them. Our educational system teaches kids to be ready for the work force but completely neglects teaching them how to be good people and good parents. If we teach our kids to be good people and parents, they will become competent professions. Shooting from the hip with good intentions is not nearly good enough.

You should read The Nurture Assumption by Judith Rich Harris.

Galeb · Apr 17, 2015

NormZauchin said:
You should read The Nurture Assumption by Judith Rich Harris.

I am very familiar with the nature vs. nurture argument and have read similar works to Judith Harris. I never made the claim that there are not genetic differences in people. That said, her, and her peers' research focused mostly on children (and twins) that were raised in the "shoot from the hip method".

There are formal systems that harness neuroplasticity, a child's natural empathy and response conditioning to shape specific skills within children. It is certainly true that the children that are raised this way are very different and have different opinions than each other. That said, almost all the children raised in such a way retain much of their natural empathy, routinely practice perspective taking, form strong relationships and rarely resort to violence.

Life will continually hurt people, challenging the very core of their believes. The difficult task is to raise people that can deal effectively with life's challenges and losses and continue to move forward. Our society has the knowledge about how to achieve this goal. Sadly, we, as a group, simply refuse to do it.

NormZauchin · Apr 17, 2015

Galeb said:
I am very familiar with the nature vs. nurture argument and have read similar works to Judith Harris. I never made the claim that there are not genetic differences in people. That said, her, and her peers' research focused mostly on children (and twins) that were raised in the "shoot from the hip method".

There are formal systems that harness neuroplasticity, a child's natural empathy and response conditioning to shape specific skills within children. It is certainly true that the children that are raised this way are very different and have different opinions than each other. That said, almost all the children raised in such a way retain much of their natural empathy, routinely practice perspective taking, form strong relationships and rarely resort to violence.

Life will continually hurt people, challenging the very core of their believes. The difficult task is to raise people that can deal effectively with life's challenges and losses and continue to move forward. Our society has the knowledge about how to achieve this goal. Sadly, we, as a group, simply refuse to do it.

Even if one assumed the correctness of your optimism with regard to the positive molding of children, it is hard to envision its implementation without massive state involvement in the family, perhaps even emulating Plato's suggestion in The Republic regarding the societal raising of children.

Galeb · Apr 17, 2015

NormZauchin said:
Even if one assumed the correctness of your optimism with regard to the positive molding of children, it is hard to envision its implementation without massive state involvement in the family, perhaps even emulating Plato's suggestion in The Republic regarding the societal raising of children.

I never said it was easy.

I have 2 more books to read before I get to The Republic.

RobertWeathers · Apr 17, 2015

BradyManny said:
However, Aaron Hernandez is just a sociopath.

Accurate but not totally.

BradyManny said:
His case is different. He wasn't killing gang members that his crew had problems with, he killed people basically for the heck of it, or out of paranoia, or whatever. He's nuts..

While certainly not deserving to die, it is rumored that Odin Lloyd was a up and coming large-scale marijuana dealer. It is reported that he was popped b/c AH was afraid that he would talk about the double murder but there has to be more to it.

As for Daniel de Abreu and Safiro Furtado...who knows why AH wacked them in their BMW but The Cure lounge isn't exactly where choir boys hang out. Popping them for an argument/spilled drink is way too convenient of a motive. I think there is more than that. A territory dispute is another rumor that's been speculated..

PatsWickedPissah · Apr 17, 2015

Wes Welker doesn't know how close he came to death in a hail of bullets when he answered rookie AH's question on how to use some gym equipment with "Freakin figure it out, rook!"

stinebot · Apr 17, 2015

PatsWickedPissah said:
Wes Welker doesn't know how close he came to death in a hail of bullets when he answered rookie AH's question on how to use some gym equipment with "Freakin figure it out, rook!"

I can't help but wonder what Hernandez was unfamiliar with. I'm sure Florida has a world class weight room.

Joker · Apr 17, 2015

what in the world does play doh have to do with the Hernandez case?....oh....uh, wait....plato...is that like "I got my forko and knifo...where in hell is the plato?"...anyway, everyone should believe in something...it's Friday evening...I believe I'll have a nice ice cold Bud..

supafly · Apr 17, 2015

DarrylS said:
Boredom is a major factor in prison, so TV is one way to give people something to do rather than sit around and bytch at each other all day.. the stations are usually limited.

There are not enough jobs, and as Hernandez will be considered a "trophy", he will not have much freedom to move around anyways.. if he does get a job, he will earn .50 a day.

Most prisons have removed free weights, and exercise is controlled and limited.. phone calls are charged to the recipient and are costly.. most prisons do not allow smoking.

Prison sux, and although it might look like he is getting a lot, he will spend every day of his life away from women, begin told what to do and when to do it, in state issued clothes around people he will not like and people who will not like him. Then there is the ever present of violence at ever corner..

All solid points from you and @Joker. My comments were mostly tongue in cheek, as I enjoyed seeing some surprised shock value reactions from the original poster who didn't think that TVs were offered, that's all.

I'm certainly familiar with the system, and believe that a better allocation of resources is needed, so those are excellent points. Of course, with anything else, there's always politics involved, and the answers aren't as easy to obtain as most would think.

Kdo5 · Apr 17, 2015

I think it's pretty funny how the pundits (particularly the radio personalities) have jumped all over Reese's stuff to condemn the Patriots. I've stopped giving a flying **** about what Felger & Mazz, Adam Jones have to say. It is a revisionist history where they are ranting about the extension after he had behaved well under his rookie contract. I guess it is good that they fail to make my blood boil anymore.

It's as simple as everyone recognized there were some red flags (and he would've been drafted eventually). We took a chance and he publically behaved perfectly until the murder(s) took place.

I do think it was absurd to offer McClain a contract but still all this resurgent outrage seems stupid.

supafly · Apr 17, 2015

Kdo5 said:
I think it's pretty funny how the pundits (particularly the radio personalities) have jumped all over Reese's stuff to condemn the Patriots. I've stopped giving a flying **** about what Felger & Mazz, Adam Jones have to say. It is a revisionist history where they are ranting about the extension after he had behaved well under his rookie contract. I guess it is good that they fail to make my blood boil anymore.

It's as simple as everyone recognized there were some red flags (and he would've been drafted eventually). We took a chance and he publically behaved perfectly until the murder(s) took place.

I do think it was absurd to offer McClain a contract but still all this resurgent outrage seems stupid.

I can appreciate Reese's thoughts that they were getting excellent value with a cheap, rookie pact in the mid-rounds. That makes perfect sense.

Where they got a bit hoodwinked, was the fact that Ahern seemed to be under control. That of course, led to the decision to offer a 40m dollar contract. One can argue that he should've been monitored more closely, I have no problem with that thinking. I do think that people have to attempt to see both sides of things, though. It would appear that the organization thought that he was just fine due to being a model teammate for the first couple of years though, and that's understandable to me.

Froob · Apr 17, 2015

Too bad for Hernandez that they didn't let Ted Wells investigate this one.

supafly · Apr 17, 2015

chasa said:
"In 2003 among facilities operated by the Federal Bureau of Prisons, it cost $25,327 per inmate." you have to assume that number has gone up in the last 12 years.

I guess it depends on what you consider "saving future lives" think of all the high risk criminals we have in prisons, and then think about how for each one the government could put $20k-$30k per criminal A YEAR to better use.

2010 numbers show 166,700 people were in prison for murder. if you take the average cost from 2003 that comes to 4,167,500,000 for the entirety of the united states.

I don't know about you, but I can think of a whole lot of ways to save peoples live, or make the lives of those who don't murder people, better with 4 billion dollars a year.

Your point would be valid, aside from the fact that there is significant evidence that suggests that it costs much MORE to execute someone than to keep them in prison for life (based on an assumed 50 year period of LWOP - life without parole).

Here are some recent comments from Charles M. Harris, JD, Senior Judge of the Fifth District Court of Appeal in Florida, published the following in an opinion piece for The Gainesville Sun, on Apr. 18, 2012, available at gainesville.com:

"...[D]eath by execution is excessively expensive. Most people who support the death penalty believe it is more cost effective than life in prison. Perhaps at one time, when executions were swift and sure, this may have been the case. It is not now. Most people knowledgeable about the subject will agree that the delay now built into the system, more trial preparation, much longer time to get to trial, much longer jury selections and trials, much more complicated and far more frequent appeals, and continuous motions, have increased the cost of capital punishment so that it is now many times the cost of keeping a prisoner in prison for life."

Some very minor/basic research suggests that it costs anywhere between 350,000 dollars and up to 3m dollars to go through with the process of execution. Those numbers are for capital cases at the federal level of prosecution.

Of course, with anything in politics, numbers can be skewed to fit the agenda, but it's certainly not a clear cut situation where executing someone saves significant money. If you actually wish to examine it further, here is a good website that lists solid evidence from many different authors, who examine both sides:

http://deathpenalty.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=001000

Aaron Hernandez found guilty of first-degree murder

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