My take on "Cap is Crap"

Miguel said:

You do realize that you did not support your contention with facts but am asking me to do so. Please hold me to the same standard that you hold yourself

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http://patsfans.com/new-england-pat...ave-bradys-paycuts-been.1119033/#post-4174538

Here you go Miguel. I posted it in it's own thread as it is a lot of work and I think deserves a discussion of what is the most fair way to do it. This is the best way I could find with the info given but would welcome your expertise as I want the most accurate info possible.

Does anyone think BB evaluates his draft board based upon that players free agent period in the future? As in, can we retain the drafted player he developed and sign them at a fair market price?

First, Miguel thanks for all of your hard work with the CAP pages. The CAP isn't a very sexy part of football, but as the Pats of demonstrated, it's every bit as important as good drafting, coaching, and player development for long term sustained success.

A point that I've considered for several years now is that CAP space should be a tradeable asset, just like draft picks. What do you all think about that? Like trade a fourth round pick for 3.2m of cap space, something like that.

It would retain the same overall cap in the league as a whole, so the NFLPA shouldn't have a major issue since the total money paid to players would stay the same. Mostly I'm just interested in giving BB another means to plunder other teams in trades. I do think, however, that Washington would end up with about two draft picks remaining each year, trading the rest away to sign big free agents.

Stilla said:

Does anyone think BB evaluates his draft board based upon that players free agent period in the future? As in, can we retain the drafted player he developed and sign them at a fair market price?

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No. I think Bill Belichick drafts players on the assumption that he will only have them for the length of their rookie contract (plus fifth year option). That's pretty much the way the CBA forces you to think. That's probably why fans are left scratching their heads at some of Belichick's picks. A JAG who can step in and give you four solid years on special teams and backup duty might be more valuable than a guy with higher "upside" who won't get on the field for three years.

ViperGTS said:

Cap is crap means that teams can sign whomever at however much salary they want. This is false of course. However, even BB said that the cap can be manipulated in may different ways. All I'm saying is if you area smart about the contracts you give out, cutting a player earlier than late, having players agree to restructures then you can manipulate the cap when you need to and thus rendering it less powerful than for other teams.

I guess in the end I'm trying to say that it's somewhere in the middle. It's not crap, but for certain teams it may seem that way.

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Saying that if you do a better job of managing contracts you have fewer cap restraints is not saying the cap is crap.

Felger just stirs the pot to be talked about

he quite frequently contradicts himself from one caller to the next

all he wants to do is create arguments.

between him and mazz (who are perfect together), you have the biggest pair of *****es on radio. couple that with zero technical knowledge to back up their opinions, and you have the great big nonsense

It has driven me to spend more time listening to WEEI and NPR

OhExaulted1 said:

BTW, Michelle Felger is crap.

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Quit with the female names for people you guys don't like or disagree with, please. Felger is acting in a very manly way...manly but stupidly. I doubt that a woman would do that kind of ignorant honking on a board like this.

vyrago said:

Quit with the female names for people you guys don't like or disagree with, please. Felger is acting in a very manly way...manly but stupidly. I doubt that a woman would do that kind of ignorant honking on a board like this.

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Yeah, I've brought up the same point before, and it's often with posters I otherwise usually agree with. I just have never agreed with or perhaps understood what it's supposed to imply.

Jackson 2 said:

Yeah, I've brought up the same point before, and it's often with posters I otherwise usually agree with. I just have never agreed with or perhaps understood what it's supposed to imply.

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My conclusion has always been that those who use such methods to demean others have little respect for women and little, if any, experience in meaningful adult relationships with women.

mgteich said:

My conclusion has always been that those who use such methods to demean others have little respect for women and little, if any, experience in meaningful adult relationships with women.

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Bingo...you got Bingo...

Devin McCourty's $47.5 certainly seems to scream that Kraft and the Pats are cheap.
The idea that the Cap is Crap always makes me laugh becuase every team that has tried to circumvent the cap they have gotten completely screwed and were forced to shed players.

It has been over a month since Revis returned to the Jets. If the cap is indeed crap, surely someone who believes that the cap is crap has written/blogged how the Patriots could have matched the Jets' offer and still build a Super Bowl contender this year and future years. As of today, Pats are under the cap by $6,148,315. Adding Revis' 2015 $16m salary would put the Pats over the cap by $9,266,685 since he would replace a player with a $585,000 salary.

It has been easy to criticize the Patriots for not matching the Jets' offer but the lack of proposed alternative scenarios shows how difficult it is to build a Super Bowl contender. It is easy to contend that the cap can be manipulated. It is much harder to back up that contention using Revis as an example.

I think those suggesting the Patriots could have signed Revis are ignoring the fact that he was signed within a matter of hours. In other words he took the Jets first legal offer, had the Patriots trumped it Woody Johnson would have bettered it until the Patriots opted out. The Jets had no ceiling, they were going to pay whatever it took. The only way the Patriots would have kept Revis would have been picking up the option, and that would have been a one year rental.

mgteich said:

My conclusion has always been that those who use such methods to demean others have little respect for women and little, if any, experience in meaningful adult relationships with women.

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I have to agree in general. It is just sophomoric to call a Michael "Michelle." That's just like saying "Your opinion is that of a woman and therefore of no value."

Something tickled me about Eric Mangini being described with a different final vowel sound. It is possible that this is because it combined the age-old -- and indefensible -- use of a female body part as a slur, with the odd practice of tucking one's male genitals away to create the illusion of female gender.

Anybody who did not get the preceding paragraph just skip it. Years ago I happily participated in the mangling of Mangini's name in this way. I think my sexism sensitivity has evolved since then. It just seemed so perfect at the time.

Sexism aside, however, a guy with the name Woody Johnson is just doomed from childhood.

Wheelssps said:

First, Miguel thanks for all of your hard work with the CAP pages. The CAP isn't a very sexy part of football, but as the Pats of demonstrated, it's every bit as important as good drafting, coaching, and player development for long term sustained success.

A point that I've considered for several years now is that CAP space should be a tradeable asset, just like draft picks. What do you all think about that? Like trade a fourth round pick for 3.2m of cap space, something like that.

It would retain the same overall cap in the league as a whole, so the NFLPA shouldn't have a major issue since the total money paid to players would stay the same. Mostly I'm just interested in giving BB another means to plunder other teams in trades. I do think, however, that Washington would end up with about two draft picks remaining each year, trading the rest away to sign big free agents.

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I hate the idea. Teams like the Jets would simply buy space from other teams to offset their incompetence.

Wheelssps said:

A point that I've considered for several years now is that CAP space should be a tradeable asset, just like draft picks. What do you all think about that? Like trade a fourth round pick for 3.2m of cap space, something like that.

It would retain the same overall cap in the league as a whole, so the NFLPA shouldn't have a major issue since the total money paid to players would stay the same. Mostly I'm just interested in giving BB another means to plunder other teams in trades. I do think, however, that Washington would end up with about two draft picks remaining each year, trading the rest away to sign big free agents.

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Okay, "cap" is not an acronym for "Can Another Player" or "Cash Always Prevails". Nor is it the case that it should be typed in all "caps," just because every letter is in "CAP." Just sayin' - for everybody not just this post. But as to the interesting suggestion here...

The problem is that such an idea, while interesting, would (as you point out) give more tools to the smarter teams to build dynasties, and would give more options to stupid teams to self-destruct.

The Shield doesn't want franchises who whittle themselves down to $50M caps with stupid deals... that fan base would disappear. The whole idea was labor peace and (more) parity. I think they really envisioned an end to dynasties altogether, but they can live with a few powerhouses, as long as every crap team in the league can start the season thinking "Hey, we could make the playoffs... then anything can happen."

Revenue sharing, free agency, and the cap make it possible for a Baltimore to have a couple of rings within a couple decades of their rebirth, for Tampa to have one, etc. It has not stopped NE from getting 4 in 15 years... It will be interesting to see whether there will ever be another dynasty with NE's staying power. That part of the BB/Brady (or possibly just BB/+QB) legacy might become more apparent as the years go by.

I firmly agree. The cap is not crap. Two teams that entered this offseason with tons of cap room: Colts and Jets.

I think the Jets had close to $50 million. I don't recall exactly how much the Colts had.

I think both teams mismanaged things and literally flushed their advantage. However, I would appreciate other poster's analysis on how each team used up all their space.

To me, the Colts still lack run defense, safeties, and only have 2 quality offensive linemen (Costanzo, Mewhort). Oh... and Trent Cole's best days are behind him so they still do not have a great pass rush. Luck is the wild card as his development could overcome a lot of shoddy personnel decisions. This is their last year on his rookie deal... then it is 5th year option... then it is franchise... Why didn't they use all their space to lock up Andrew Luck? Why didn't they address their critical need for run stuffers? Why don't they have anybody to play the safety position?

Also, the Jets are a very old defense, Revis is still really good, but Cromartie isn't what he used to be. Harris was an overpay to keep him away from Rex Ryan. Marshall is on to his 4th team (Denver, Miami, Chicago, NY) and that rarely happens for players will All-Pro talent. All said... who plays quarterback and what is the shelf life of this team. In addition to the older defense... Ferguson, Mangold, etc... are not exactly young either. I think they have a 1-2 year window and without a quarterback are projected to be 8-8 if they can stay healthy.

PatsFanInVa said:

I have to agree in general. It is just sophomoric to call a Michael "Michelle." That's just like saying "Your opinion is that of a woman and therefore of no value."

Something tickled me about Eric Mangini being described with a different final vowel sound. It is possible that this is because it combined the age-old -- and indefensible -- use of a female body part as a slur, with the odd practice of tucking one's male genitals away to create the illusion of female gender.

Anybody who did not get the preceding paragraph just skip it. Years ago I happily participated in the mangling of Mangini's name in this way. I think my sexism sensitivity has evolved since then. It just seemed so perfect at the time.

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There are no rules of order when it comes to slurring the Jets. Any and all appellations, including the usually idiotic practice of feminizing a male name, are permissible when the Jets are the target. Fire away...

I feel much better now @Jackson 2

@micronin127 , I'll wait for the season I guess. The Colts have shown an ability to draft well, and usually field a competitive squad. If they were the Pats we would be saying that ____ is a year better b/c he is a second or third year guy, that ____ will bring them a whole new dimension, etc. Like you I just don't see it. But then, I only recognize Patriots off-season moves as being "the perfect fit/last missing pieces," and even then, only in retrospect. On other teams' fan forums, I am sure we look to be beaten from day 1, having lost Browner, Revis, and Wilfork. 'Round here in BB we trust. But that's a lot to "fix." For one thing I don't know where we're going to make up Browner's penalty yard production

I kid of course. Obviously Browner is a big loss. As for how we addressed it... is it September yet?