Here is why you shouldn't get mad if BB trades down

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the reason Hernandez fell to the fourth round because of character concerns? So if character concerns forced him to the fourth round and that ended with the Patriots cutting him, taking a cap hit, and not winning a Super Bowl with him, then he can't really be considered a steal and should be considered a bust.
He failed in the nfl because of character concerns, that is not a steal. You can't put an "if" on a steal when the "if" is the reason he fell so far in the first place.
Imagine a QB getting drafted in the seventh round because of inaccuracy. You can't say "he'd be a steal if he was accurate, so that wasn't BB's fault or a bad pick."

But of course all your other points are unarguable.

Interception said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the reason Hernandez fell to the fourth round because of character concerns? So if character concerns forced him to the fourth round and ending with character concerns forcing the Patriots to cut him and take a cap hit and he didn't help them win a Super Bowl, then he can't really be considered a steal and should be considered a bust.
He failed in the nfl because of character concerns, that is not a steal. You can't put an "if" on a steal if the "if" is the reason he fell so far in the first place.

But of course all your other points are unarguable.

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I'm not sure 'helped win a SB' is the proper standard for steal/bust.
I'm also not sure 'dropped because of character issues' is a fact.

AndyJohnson said:

I'm not sure 'helped win a SB' is the proper standard for steal/bust.
I'm also not sure 'dropped because of character issues' is a fact.

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It's definitely not the standard for a steal or a bust, but he definitely hurt the patriots more than he helped them. What did Hernandez accomplish to be considered a steal?
I'm not 100% sure he dropped due to character concerns but I do think that was the reason. Regardless, he is closer to a bust than a steal and talking about "ifs" with him doesn't change the reality. BB took a chance on him, gave him a huge contract, and it ended up being bad choices. Of course hindsight is 20/20 and who knows if Hernandez just had them fooled or if the patriots didn't monitor their players close enough, but the choices to draft and extend Hernandez were not good ones.

AndyJohnson said:

I'm not sure 'helped win a SB' is the proper standard for steal/bust.
I'm also not sure 'dropped because of character issues' is a fact.

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http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap20...dezs-nfl-entry-what-did-scouts-know-back-then

He fell due to character concerns. This one is completely on the patriots. They took a chance and were wrong. That's a bust.

Interception said:

he can't really be considered a steal and should be considered a bust.

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The former could be said, the latter cannot. There is no such thing as a bust in the 4th round who averages 50 catches and 600 yards over a three year period, no matter how poorly it ends.

Oswlek said:

The former could be said, the latter cannot. There is no such thing as a bust in the 4th round who averages 50 catches and 600 yards over a three year period, no matter how poorly it ends.

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Hernandez was a steal for his rookie contract amount and his 4th round draft placement. One can argue about who might have acted differently when the extension was negotiated.

character was only mentioned in one draft report (walterfootball), and there was no elaboration.

his biggest perceived weaknesses were that he couldn't block to save his life and that he would struggle to release from the LOS.....add to that the tebow factor in that there was not very good tape footage to see what people wanted to see

Interception said:

It's definitely not the standard for a steal or a bust, but he definitely hurt the patriots more than he helped them. What did Hernandez accomplish to be considered a steal?
I'm not 100% sure he dropped due to character concerns but I do think that was the reason. Regardless, he is closer to a bust than a steal and talking about "ifs" with him doesn't change the reality. BB took a chance on him, gave him a huge contract, and it ended up being bad choices. Of course hindsight is 20/20 and who knows if Hernandez just had them fooled or if the patriots didn't monitor their players close enough, but the choices to draft and extend Hernandez were not good ones.

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If the Seahawks had punched it in and we lost Super Bowl 49, I could use your same argument to call Gronk a bust. Let's face it, he was only available when he was because of injury concerns. Injuries have plagued him so far in his career and he hasn't helped us win a Super Bowl, not to mention the money we're paying him. How can you call him a steal? Total bust.

Crazy Patriot Guy said:

And the hero of the Super Bowl we won was a Division II undrafted rookie CB, after a fairly quick drive got the Seahawks down the field, starting with our stud LB getting beat on the first play for a long gain.

Our stud corners weren't the difference on that final drive. Though obviously they made it a lot easier getting there.

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2 Fluke plays. What are the odds that Butler will make a play like that again? David Tyree made the helmet catch and was never to be heard from again. Nobody knows if Butler will even make the team.

Triumph said:

2 Fluke plays. What are the odds that Butler will make a play like that again? David Tyree made the helmet catch and was never to be heard from again. Nobody knows if Butler will even make the team.

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Regardless of what Butler's future holds, the bobbling, bouncing catch by Kearse was a fluke that was well defended, but there was nothing flukey about his game winning pick.

It was a GR8 play!

PatsWickedPissah said:

Just realized that I will miss the entire NFL draft because I will be in France of all places.
Does this get me banned from Patsfans?

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The ironic thing is that by Fri when you go to bed, in France you might not know any more about the Pats newer players than the rest of us. Unless of course you might have a connection to that thing they call the..... internet. I hear rumors that it exists even in in Europe, but I'm not sure since I don't get out much.....and my invitation from you got lost in mail.

I hope you have great trip and a safe trip back, so you can quickly joint the complaint-fest that will ensue shortly after the last pick is selected.

PatsWickedPissah said:

Just realized that I will miss the entire NFL draft because I will be in France of all places.
Does this get me banned from Patsfans?

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Isn't France several hours ahead of us?

Lucky you, you'll know the picks before we do.

Triumph said:

2 Fluke plays. What are the odds that Butler will make a play like that again? David Tyree made the helmet catch and was never to be heard from again. Nobody knows if Butler will even make the team.

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Exactly. You pointed out how Brady twice led the Pats to 4th quarter Super Bowl leads and the swiss cheese secondary let him down as a reason to move up for a stud corner if one was there. Well, this year we had arguably the best secondary we've ever had under BB and Seattle still had the ball inside the one yard line with near 1 minute on the clock, three chances to score and a timeout in their pocket. If they decided to go Lynch or bust, chances are we lose the game. It's way too easy to blame it all on the secondary in our two losses while ignoring how we could have/should have lost this one the same way.

Crazy Patriot Guy said:

Exactly. You pointed out how Brady twice led the Pats to 4th quarter Super Bowl leads and the swiss cheese secondary let him down as a reason to move up for a stud corner if one was there. Well, this year we had arguably the best secondary we've ever had under BB and Seattle still had the ball inside the one yard line with near 1 minute on the clock, three chances to score and a timeout in their pocket. If they decided to go Lynch or bust, chances are we lose the game. It's way too easy to blame it all on the secondary in our two losses while ignoring how we could have/should have lost this one the same way.

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It took everything the Pats had on defense to beat the Ravens. Revis erased Steve Smith after his TD. Which CB on the roster right now can take the other teams best WR out of the game? Revis did that all season long and allowed the Pats to mix up coverage and leave Revis on his own.

The Kearse catch was an absolute fluke. It came down to the last play and the play Browner made is overlooked. The 2014 NE secondary was the best in 10 years. Its not even debatable.

Interception said:

It's definitely not the standard for a steal or a bust, but he definitely hurt the patriots more than he helped them. What did Hernandez accomplish to be considered a steal?
I'm not 100% sure he dropped due to character concerns but I do think that was the reason. Regardless, he is closer to a bust than a steal and talking about "ifs" with him doesn't change the reality. BB took a chance on him, gave him a huge contract, and it ended up being bad choices. Of course hindsight is 20/20 and who knows if Hernandez just had them fooled or if the patriots didn't monitor their players close enough, but the choices to draft and extend Hernandez were not good ones.

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We're talking two separate things here.

1. The use of a 4th round, 113 overall choice was worth the amount of production it merited. This is a no brainer and not arguable. He produced a lot for where he was drafted. While AV is not a perfect measure of a player, it's pretty decent. On average, a player drafted around that slot would produce 4.5 career AV to Hernandez's 23. By any measure you want, he was a successful draft choice and we got a ton of value out of that pick.

2. The early contract extension with 2 years left on his rookie deal was an attempt at buying value, but considering the character risk, may have merited waiting. That was the mistake, not the actual draft choice, and it was that contract extension which screwed up our cap (almost wrote killed our cap, but that would be...yeah...).

Triumph said:

It took everything the Pats had on defense to beat the Ravens. Revis erased Steve Smith after his TD. Which CB on the roster right now can take the other teams best WR out of the game? Revis did that all season long and allowed the Pats to mix up coverage and leave Revis on his own.

The Kearse catch was an absolute fluke. It came down to the last play and the play Browner made is overlooked. The 2014 NE secondary was the best in 10 years. Its not even debatable.

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I'm certainly not debating how good the secondary was, it was easily the best we've had in a while. And it was a big part of us getting to the Super Bowl and winning.

I'm also not against taking a stud corner if one is there. All I'm saying is I don't agree that we can't count on low round guys or a less heralded secondary by citing Super Bowl 46 as the reason. We held the Giants to 13 offensive points before that final drive and one could argue that's the final if Wes Welker holds on to that catch. The secondary didn't stop us from being minutes away from winning the Super Bowl, it isn't fair to throw it all on them.

The Gr8est said:

Isn't France several hours ahead of us?

Lucky you, you'll know the picks before we do.

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Very funny. You know I don't speak French.

Interception said:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap20...dezs-nfl-entry-what-did-scouts-know-back-then

He fell due to character concerns. This one is completely on the patriots. They took a chance and were wrong. That's a bust.

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OK, so you are basing your analysis on comments made after he was arrested for murder. Not convincing.
There is no way to know if anyone saw his talent as better than where he was drafted.
The Patriots got good return on that 4th round pick.

Interception said:

It's definitely not the standard for a steal or a bust,

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Those were your exact words that I responded to.

but he definitely hurt the patriots more than he helped them.

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On the field, no. Off the field, debatable. Public relations wise, sure.

What did Hernandez accomplish to be considered a steal?

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I didn't call him a steal, in fact I don't even use that term, but he certainly produced more than expected based on his draft slot.

I'm not 100% sure he dropped due to character concerns but I do think that was the reason. Regardless, he is closer to a bust than a steal and talking about "ifs" with him doesn't change the reality. BB took a chance on him, gave him a huge contract, and it ended up being bad choices. Of course hindsight is 20/20 and who knows if Hernandez just had them fooled or if the patriots didn't monitor their players close enough, but the choices to draft and extend Hernandez were not good ones.

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Now you are mixing drafting him and the second contract.
I don't think anyone drafts based upon the % chance that the player will become a murderer. I don't know how you would expect a football coach to forsee that.

hernandez was pretty decent value for where he was drafted.......but I would neither call him a steal or a bust.......jimmy graham was a steal