Freak Catch In SB - Harmon Could Have Done More

ausbacker · Apr 5, 2015

BradyManny said:
The only angle that you should be watching it from is the one where it played live - the rest give terrible depth perception.

OK, look, I hate to go crazy over this thing, but I got nothing better to do, so here:

1) Harmon coming in pretty much horizontally, no real chance to make the play here yet.

2) But wait, look the ball, instinct: make a play, Harmon quickly changes his angle of approach.

3) Harmon now positions himself to go for the ball.

4) Takes another step laterally instead and leaps horizontally out of bounds to safety

Clearly, this is a bang-bang play here. Again, I don't think this is some routine play. But his initial instinct was to go for the ball when he saw it tipped. Look, this is just my take on it - I would love to defer to someone who plays the game. Truly, I'm more curious than anything else.

EDIT: Harmon's own quote below seems to confirm this transpired. What instinct he had to go for the ball was stopped as he thought the play was dead so took himself out of play.

There's a rotational angle from the backside that shows the ball behind Harmon as he moves past Kearse. You'll have to forgive me as I'm not sure where it is, but I have seen it.

I don't disagree with the second portion of your comment. The moment he left the ground, his play on the ball, however small, was over.

Twentytothree · Apr 5, 2015

mb6592 said:
He could have played the ball. At least RayClay went with the "he was no where near the play what you see is an optical illusion" story. He's also wrong, but at least he isn't continuing with the "his only option was to crush Kearse" story.

Some of the folks here have watched to much wire-fu. Changing direction in mid-air, maybe with a barrel-roll thrown in, doesn't actually work in real life.

hwc · Apr 5, 2015

(b) Prohibited contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture is: (1) Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or grasping him; and (2) Lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead/”hairline” parts of the helmet against any part of the defenseless player’s body.

http://www.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/15_Rule12_Player_Conduct.pdf

Hitting a defenseless player in the act of making a catch is not against the rules.

Deus Irae · Apr 5, 2015

Everything happened in a split-second and Harmon didn't realize how close he was to the ball until he watched the replays.

"It looks worse," Harmon said. "That's what makes me feel even more bad because you see how close my foot was to the ball and I did nothing about it."

http://www.nj.com/rutgersfootball/i...afety_duron_harmons_memories_almost_were.html

PatsFanInVa · Apr 5, 2015

Twentytothree said:
Some of the folks here have watched to much wire-fu. Changing direction in mid-air, maybe with a barrel-roll thrown in, doesn't actually work in real life.

Canuck · Apr 5, 2015

Harmon thought it was an incomplete pass as he thought the ball hit the ground. So he jumped over Kearse who was laying on the ground so as not to incur a penalty. Had he recognized that the ball was still in play, he would have reacted differently. What he would have done, I don't know but there has been a number of suggestions as to what he should have done.

He wasn't racing to intercept the ball because he couldn't get there in time. He was taking an angle to cut off Kearse if he had caught the ball. It's obvious to me that he wasn't watching the play the whole time he was running. He was late in picking up the play again and reacted to what he thought had happened and not what did happen.

What I don't understand is why he wasn't watching the play the whole time he was running. Had he saw the ball being tipped by Butler he certainely could have done better then what he did.

pdangle · Apr 6, 2015

Big-T said:
If he kicks it away he runs the risk of being flagged for illegal kicking.
If he dives on Kearse he runs the risk of being flagged for unnecessary roughness.
With the speed he was going originally to get into the position he was, it would have been near impossible to adjust/dive to break up the tip.

I just re-watched the play. IMO He get's there in plenty of time to either avert around him, hit him, or stop even completely. All he needed to do is slow down, and throw his hands down there and mess up the miraculous "catch", which only happened because Kearse had a NFL lifetime to track that ball after multiple bobbles and re-catches. I couldn't help but think the perfect commentary to this jump avoid move during a slow-mo replay was "Whoa, excuse me, didn't see you there. Don't let me get in your way... Hmmm I'll just keep jumping on, over here.. OK? Yes. Perfect, there I go. Hey, nice catch. Well done Sir!"

UK_Pat37 · Apr 6, 2015

Can't blame Harmon at all. He might blame himself with hindsight but if that ball falls incomplete and he hits a guy on the ground, he's getting flagged.

It was a freak play. Let's leave it at that.

RayClay · Apr 6, 2015

He could have done something different. He could have tripped over him.

IllegalContact · Apr 6, 2015

I believe Harmon did not finish the play properly.

He could have disrupted the bobble

However, I have no interest in a do over

Rob0729 · Apr 6, 2015

Ok, I watched the video again just for s**ts and giggles. Harmon gets to Kearse when the ball is still bouncing between Kearse's legs and is in the air already jumping over him when the ball bounces into his hands.

I still don't know Harmon was supposed to be psychic enough to know that a ball that was totally uncatchable by the time he got to him was going to take an incredibly lucky bounce and bounce up his body to his hands than on the ground.

Again, I think people are killing him because we know the outcome of the play, but Harmon probably executed the play the coaching staff probably teaches it. If the ball looks to be broken up and uncatchable as it was when Harmon got to Kearse, avoid contact and not draw the cheap penalty.

Rob0729 · Apr 6, 2015

pdangle said:
I just re-watched the play. IMO He get's there in plenty of time to either avert around him, hit him, or stop even completely. All he needed to do is slow down, and throw his hands down there and mess up the miraculous "catch", which only happened because Kearse had a NFL lifetime to track that ball after multiple bobbles and re-catches. I couldn't help but think the perfect commentary to this jump avoid move during a slow-mo replay was "Whoa, excuse me, didn't see you there. Don't let me get in your way... Hmmm I'll just keep jumping on, over here.. OK? Yes. Perfect, there I go. Hey, nice catch. Well done Sir!"

And I rewatched it and saw it differently. At the time he got to Kearse, there was a 99.99999999999% chance that the ball drops to the ground. It bouncing around his legs and nowhere near his hands.

Again, we are judging his performance in hindsight of the knowledge that it was a lucky catch. In the moment, there was virtually no way would catch that ball. The odds of Kearse catching that ball when it was bouncing around his legs was almost as a long shot as winning the lottery.

Rob0729 · Apr 6, 2015

BradyManny said:
Really? That surprises me. Quite the opposite in my household where we all knew we'd just been Tyree'd again.

Of course we're playing Monday Morning CB here. The question is whether he did what he was coached to do or not. I would like to know the answer out of sheer curiosity, not because I want Duron Harmon's blood. He made a safe play. Could he have made a better play?

Did you think that when it Harmon was jumping over him or after he got up and started running? I am talking at the point Harmon was there.

And no one knew for sure that it didn't hit the ground until replay. It was just the Patriots' pessimism in us. If Tyree didn't have that catch, I bet you all would have thought Kearse dropped the ball.

BradyManny · Apr 6, 2015

Rob0729 said:
Did you think that when it Harmon was jumping over him or after he got up and started running? I am talking at the point Harmon was there.

And no one knew for sure that it didn't hit the ground until replay. It was just the Patriots' pessimism in us. If Tyree didn't have that catch, I bet you all would have thought Kearse dropped the ball.

Hey, Rob, deleted my post - kind of didn't feel like debating anymore. I am not sure how much Tyree's catch informed my pessimism or not. It's a fair point. But I have to point out that Harmon's decision to get out the way was concurrent or slightly before the crazy part of the play, which is the bounce off the leg. Harmon had to make his decision based off of the direction of the initial bobble into the air.

PatsFanSince74 · Apr 6, 2015

Patstopia said:
Actually with the defenseless receiver rule, slamming into a receiver on the ground who looks to have missed the pass to begin with would have probably caused a personal foul.

That was my thought the next day as well. If Harmon lands on Kearse when he's already down, there's a 50-50 chance that they'll call him for "defenseless receiver" (unless the referee recognized that the ball was still alive, which, in a bang-bang play would have been unlikely). The "perfect play"would have been to knock the ball out of bounds as he was jumping over him, but thank God Butler made a "perfect play" two plays later.

I guess that's why perfect plays are rare, sort of like the "perfect play" would have been for Welker to "catch the damn ball" or for Rodney to knock the ball off Tyree's helmet or Asante to pick that pass.

Patstopia · Apr 6, 2015

Every time I watch this play, even now knowing the results, It gives me a knot in my stomach. And that ****y SOB Wilson thinking everything he does turned to sunshine! I love that he threw the game losing interception. I hate that they blame the call, when it was also a bad throw right into coverage.
But back to Harmon, split second to decide, he played it as incomplete.

mb6592 · Apr 6, 2015

RayClay said:
He could have done something different. He could have tripped over him.

That's interesting. Now we are getting somewhere. Let's go with this narrative. What are the chances of Kearse making that miracle catch if Harmon had chosen to trip, rather than leap, over him? The chances of him receiving a penalty would have been slim to none had he, at the minimum, made that choice. I still maintain he had an opportunity to play the ball, but (by his own admission) gave up on the play.

mb6592 · Apr 6, 2015

Rob0729 said:
Ok, I watched the video again just for s**ts and giggles. Harmon gets to Kearse when the ball is still bouncing between Kearse's legs and is in the air already jumping over him when the ball bounces into his hands.

I still don't know Harmon was supposed to be psychic enough to know that a ball that was totally uncatchable by the time he got to him was going to take an incredibly lucky bounce and bounce up his body to his hands than on the ground.

Again, I think people are killing him because we know the outcome of the play, but Harmon probably executed the play the coaching staff probably teaches it. If the ball looks to be broken up and uncatchable as it was when Harmon got to Kearse, avoid contact and not draw the cheap penalty.

We see ridiculous, circus and every other kind of catch made every week. It's why pro's are taught to play to the whistle, never give up on a play, etc. Harmon didn't do that on that play. You could excuse him, because it was a ridiculous catch, but it doesn't change the fact that his actions (BY HIS OWN ADMISSION) were dictated, in large part, as a result of him thinking the play was over.

RayClay · Apr 7, 2015

mb6592 said:
That's interesting. Now we are getting somewhere. Let's go with this narrative. What are the chances of Kearse making that miracle catch if Harmon had chosen to trip, rather than leap, over him? The chances of him receiving a penalty would have been slim to none had he, at the minimum, made that choice. I still maintain he had an opportunity to play the ball, but (by his own admission) gave up on the play.

I'd say the chance of a penalty resulting in the exact same thing [or in a big play if he didn't make that ridiculous catch] would be close to 100%

RayClay · Apr 7, 2015

Are we talking a trip, pirouette and change of direction resulting in a swat of the bouncing ball? I'd say the chance of that happening, even given the penalty, was small.

Freak Catch In SB - Harmon Could Have Done More

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