Freak Catch In SB - Harmon Could Have Done More

BradyManny said:

I think this avoiding the penalty stuff is overstated. Hitting a defenseless receiver has never been called for incidental contact. Unless he launches himself at Kearse's head, there is no threat of penalty. If you go in looking to hurt the receiver (aka, Brandon Meriweathering), yes, you will get called, but making a play on the ball will not warrant a flag.

If you can find me examples of other plays where guys purposely avoided an opposing player while a tipped ball was in the air, maybe I would consider he did what was coached - but I think we're inventing an excuse. I would love to hear from someone who has played in the secondary, I could be wrong.

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You are talking about split second decision making, not going to scour the internet looking for an example.. IMO the decision not to hit him was the right thing to do, based on what looked like an incomplete pass..

In the long offseason, this is the major bytch???

The rules.. termed unnecessary roughness.

http://nflcommunications.com/2011/12/27/definition-of-a-defenseless-player/

It is a foul if a player initiates unnecessary contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture.

2) A receiver attempting to catch a pass; or who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner. If the receiver/runner is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player;

(5) A player on the ground at the end of a play;

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DarrylS said:

IMO the decision not to hit him was the right thing to do, based on what looked like an incomplete pass..

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Why would that have looked like an incomplete pass to Harmon? I can see why Butler would think it would fall incomplete as he broke it up. But to Harmon, the ball was in the air, and it was coming down on a receiver. It was a circus catch, but that kind of play happens. I'd be surprised if the Pats don't coach for it.

In the long offseason, this is the major bytch???

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We could talk about deflategate again? I mean, what else are we going to talk about right now, it's the deadest part of the offseason.

The rules.. termed unnecessary roughness.

http://nflcommunications.com/2011/12/27/definition-of-a-defenseless-player/

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Right, to me, it's rather clear that Harmon could make a play at breaking up the ball without violating the rules. The play was not over.

TommyBrady12 said:

i don't think it was collins who allowed wilson to make that big run - it was chandler jones who went for the sack instead of containing him.

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No, Collins looped around and blew the containment on the play.

It's a mistake that.probably a majority of safeties would make so I won't kill him for it. It looks like when butler originally tips the ball he assumes the play is over so he wisely(given his train of thought) avoids the penalty. IMO Technically it is a mistake as had he been keying on the ball more he could have made the play without even risking the penalty. Its a tough miss because it was such a fluke bounce but I think it's one an experienced and better safety successfully breaks up. i.e. If a similar bounce were to occur again I'd imagine you'll see Harmon looking for the ball more.... Even if it's not as catchable as this one.

hwc said:

He jumped over Kearse while the ball was still in the air.

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That seems to be lost on many defending Harmon's reaction during the play. Not sure the reluctance to just admit he could have played THE BALL better (not tackled Kearse as some are ridiculously suggesting is the alternative option).

BradyManny said:

If you go watch the video, it is actually much more clear that he did have a play on the ball. I have just freeze framed it for you at the moment where he was about to make the play and stopped himself. Again, I'm not saying it's an easy play,an interception would've been amazing, but he doesn't have to be very precise to disrupt the play.

But safeties at least attempt to make those plays all the time. What does not happen all the time (or more precisely, never), yet people are acting like it does, is they are called for a personal foul for trying to intercept a pass.

Again, I'm not trying to kill the guy, it would've been a great play to make - just saying it's not absurd to think Belichick might use that as a coaching moment.

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I watched the videos and from several different angles repeatedly. In my opinion, you couldn't be more wrong about the play.

I fail to see what else Harmon could have done other than hammer the Wide Receiver. That is not going to end well for the Patriots. 10 years ago, perhaps it would have but with the current rules, not a chance.

KontradictioN said:

Harmon didn't have to hit him, but his recognition could have been better. Kearse was still clearly juggling that ball. Harmon was in position to knock it away but jumped over him instead. Kudos to Butler for having the presence of mind to push Kearse out of bounds.

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Exactly, kudos for Butler for not assuming play was over and for not giving up on the play and having the presence of mind to push Kearse out of bounds. If he'd done what Harmon had done, we'd be on the losing side of this game. I suppose the same people excusing Harmon would have excused Butler because it was a unexpected catch?

BradyManny said:

I'm not trying to kill the guy, it would've been a great play to make - just saying it's not absurd to think Belichick might use that as a coaching moment.

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Does anyone here seriously doubt that Belichick will use this as a teaching moment to never give up on a play? Could anyone possible really believe that to be the case?

BradyManny said:

I think this avoiding the penalty stuff is overstated. Hitting a defenseless receiver has never been called for incidental contact. Unless he launches himself at Kearse's head, there is no threat of penalty. If you go in looking to hurt the receiver (aka, Brandon Meriweathering), yes, you will get called, but making a play on the ball will not warrant a flag.

If you can find me examples of other plays where guys purposely avoided an opposing player while a tipped ball was in the air, maybe I would consider he did what was coached - but I think we're inventing an excuse. I would love to hear from someone who has played in the secondary, I could be wrong.

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You have an example a minute later when Butler collides with the Seahawks receiver while playing the ball with no penalty called.

ausbacker said:

I fail to see what else Harmon could have done other than hammer the Wide Receiver.

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He could have played the ball. At least RayClay went with the "he was no where near the play what you see is an optical illusion" story. He's also wrong, but at least he isn't continuing with the "his only option was to crush Kearse" story.

This thread contains just about everything I dislike about internet message boards.

betterthanthealternative said:

This thread contains just about everything I dislike about internet message boards.

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Doesn't just about every thread?

ausbacker said:

I watched the videos and from several different angles repeatedly. In my opinion, you couldn't be more wrong about the play.

I fail to see what else Harmon could have done other than hammer the Wide Receiver.

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The only angle that you should be watching it from is the one where it played live - the rest give terrible depth perception.

OK, look, I hate to go crazy over this thing, but I got nothing better to do, so here:

1) Harmon coming in pretty much horizontally, no real chance to make the play here yet.

2) But wait, look the ball, instinct: make a play, Harmon quickly changes his angle of approach.

3) Harmon now positions himself to go for the ball.

4) Takes another step laterally instead and leaps horizontally out of bounds to safety


Clearly, this is a bang-bang play here. Again, I don't think this is some routine play. But his initial instinct was to go for the ball when he saw it tipped. Look, this is just my take on it - I would love to defer to someone who plays the game. Truly, I'm more curious than anything else.

EDIT: Harmon's own quote below seems to confirm this transpired. What instinct he had to go for the ball was stopped as he thought the play was dead so took himself out of play.

I think everybody saw that play and got sick to their stomachs. Another insane catch SB loss coming, etc. I think we all looked at the coverage and though "Gosh DARN it, he had that play broken up!" - so yeah, even had Butler not become the hero 2 plays later, you have to watch the play and say "how about that other guy..."

But the momentum was what it was... get whichever angle you want, and do yourself a favor... watch it normal speed.

Now I will say both from Butler's play on this pass, and his play two plays later, that Butler is a guy with tremendous presence of mind and body control.

It does not necessarily follow that Harmon is not such a specimen based on this play.

Anything that puts Harmon on a path toward the receiver on the ground risks the same outcome in terms of field position...

So we'd have to limit Harmon's genius break-up moves to those that put him on a trajectory leaping above Kearse, not kicking the ball, and somehow breaking up the pass.

Bear in mind, the risk-benefit analysis must be of a pass that is 99.9% likely to be broken up and not a factor. What are his available moves that are justified by that .01% possibility of a completion?

betterthanthealternative said:

This thread contains just about everything I dislike about internet message boards.

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Why (not asking to be a ****, just curious)? I don't understand when people come to a message board dedicated to obsessing about a certain topic that they are surprised to find people obsessing about a certain sub-topic. Especially in the offseason.

This is from Duron Harmon on the play:

Oh my God, I was just upset to the point where watching it, I felt like I could have done something about the play," Harmon told Duggan. "At that point, I felt like I let my team down. ...

"To be honest, I thought the ball was down like everybody else. I thought the ball bounced off the ground. I was like, I can stop but I'm going to fall on him because I was moving too fast. So I just jumped over him and I took a peek around and he's up about to run and I saw Malcolm [Butler]. I was like, there's no way they're going to count that as a catch. But it was a catch. I have to give credit to Kearse for that catch. That was a great catch. But it broke my heart."

Then came Butler's interception.

"It was a tremendous play," Harmon told Duggan. "A whole bunch of depression just came off of me. All I could do was just run on the field and give him a hug. It was the best feeling I've ever had."

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4778683/duron-harmon-reflects-on-super-bowl

BradyManny said:

Why (not asking to be a ****, just curious)? I don't understand when people come to a message board dedicated to obsessing about a certain topic that they are surprised to find people obsessing about a certain sub-topic. Especially in the offseason.

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I'm not complaining about the obsession...I'm doing that, too, and love the escape from the other parts of life it affords me. It's HOW we do the obsessing here. My preferences (and I'm not trying to be a ****, either):

• curiosity rather than certainty
  
• humility r/t arrogance
• a focus on building a dialogue that encourages r/t arrogance and personal ego investment
  
• focus what's going well and success, r/t on problems and failures (especially given that the Pats are one of the most successful pro sports franchises in history)
  
• appreciation for the incredible athletes that play pro football, r/t attitudes represented in language like "trash", "JAG", etc.
• appreciation for the remarkable professional achievements and incredible hard work necessary to become a pro football coach
  
• a sense of incredible good fortune as a Pats fan in specific, and a Boston pro sports fan in general , rather than entitlement to that good fortune
• recognition to those here who provide significant information, such as Miguel, Mayo, OTG, and others (particularly this time of year, with all the draft research)

But I'm more prone to this kind of idealism than most, given my own professional focus, and am fully aware that these preferences set me up for disappointment. I'll own the problem. And I certainly don't live up to my preferences consistently.

I like this thread, for example: http://patsfans.com/new-england-pat...ding-free-agency-and-the-draft.1117697/page-3

betterthanthealternative said:

But I'm more prone to this kind of idealism than most, given my own professional focus, and am fully aware that these preferences set me up for disappointment. I'll own the problem. And I certainly don't live up to my preferences consistently.

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Good post. Those are all great points - but I worry that is setting expectations high for a messageboard, where I think its impractical to see those things play out consistently. But still, they are things to aim for and good to remind of us.

Nice series BradyManny. In (2) we have the ball at the "top" of its "Harmon arc," meaning the top of the arc as defined by times that Harmon can act. In (3) he'd have to dive.... your analysis is the only play would be on the ball, but I'd guess that the play on the ball would have to include a possible hit on Kearse, or so he judged it. I never played secondary.

So in the play as snapped above, (1) Harmon is running almost laterally across the 6 yard-line, and in (2) through (4) he's moved one yard toward the play (the play "came to him"). All his momentum is lateral, none or little of it is "toward the play"... after the "stop" that you captured in (2)-(4) look at the next step where he stops absorbing that force and goes with it... it springs him right to the sidelines.

People have probably posted this angle before... I'm pressing start-stop over and over


So I don't know either whether he can spring forward here in the way everybody's urging, but it looks like once both Kearse and Butler are flat on their backs, he's got sideways momentum but little ability to make the forward play with the necessary precision... you can see the ball pop back up after he's past.

So we at least have to acknowledge that the decision's not to be where the ball ends up on the bounce (back up at eye level, after the fact,) but to be in the pile as the ball drops toward Kearse (if in fact he could make that dive in time)...

This one's gone through my mind a million times too

Canuck said:

This is from Duron Harmon on the play: "Oh my God, I was just upset to the point where watching it, I felt like I could have done something about the play," Harmon told Duggan. "At that point, I felt like I let my team down. ...

"To be honest, I thought the ball was down like everybody else. I thought the ball bounced off the ground..."

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I mean WTF? If Harmon, HIMSELF, has this take, why so much handwringing to excuse his actions on the play? And again, does anyone seriously believe Belichick didn't use this as a teaching moment on how to never give up on a play? And, while some have stressed Harmon was moving laterally and was not near the play, it's important to note the play (and Kearse and the ball) was moving toward him. They converged to the point that Harmon had to jump over Kearse to avoid tripping over him. Had Harmon's focus been ON THE BALL there's little doubt he could have at least disrupted the play.